Ep. 5: How to Navigate Climate Emotions and Build Community Around You with Jen Knoch

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (00:00.664)
The cool thing about climate action is that you don’t have to start something new from scratch. There are already people doing the work in your community. So find them and join in. Welcome to Sustainable in the Suburbs, a podcast for the eco curious who want to live a greener life and are looking for a place to start. I’m your host, Sarah Robertson Barnes, a soccer mom with a station wagon and a passion for sustainable living. Each week I’ll bring you practical tips and honest conversations to help you waste less.

save money and make small doable shifts that actually fit your real life. Because sustainable living doesn’t have to be perfect to matter and you don’t have to do it all to make a difference. Hi friends and welcome back to Sustainable in the Suburbs, the podcast where we start where we are, use what we have and live a little greener, one small shift at a time. Right now it can feel like everything in the news is relentlessly negative. Some days it seems like collapse is inevitable in so many ways.

And when you’re carrying all that, it’s so easy to feel angry or overwhelmed or worse, apathetic. Like why even bother trying at all? But in times like these, when so much feels uncertain and there’s so much at stake, we need more than action alone. We need to stay connected, to care for each other, to keep tending what matters in big ways and small. And when it comes to the climate crisis, that kind of steady grounded care is more important than ever.

So this week, we’re talking about how to hold those climate emotions, how to keep tending in place. People and community can be a powerful way to keep going. I’m joined today by someone whose work reminds me that we don’t have to hold any of this alone and that connecting with nature and each other is critical climate action too. Jen Nock is a Toronto-based sustainability advocate, book editor, gardener, and self-described lover of mason jars, someone deeply committed to climate action and living with care.

Jen facilitates a powerful climate emotions retreat here in Southern Ontario, which is actually how we met. She’s also someone I deeply admire for really living her values from growing native plants and rescuing forgotten ones to cycling the city, building up community food systems and showing up for her neighbors in ways big and small. So let’s get into it.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (02:20.11)
Hi, Jen. I’m so happy to have you on the show today. I first connected with you on Instagram, but then in real life at your climate emotions retreat, which is coming up again really soon. And I’m so excited to see you.

Jen Knoch (02:35.172)
And we’re so excited to have you back.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (02:37.166)
I’m really excited. And I’m going to talk about birds again this time, but… Amazing. Ever since then, I’ve leaned a lot more into processing my climate emotions. And that’s been the focus of my reading and whatnot. But you’ve really also inspired me in the ways that you show up for your local community and this planet that we share in general. So I’m really excited to bring your voice and all your experiences to the podcast today.

Jen Knoch (03:03.65)
Thank you, Sarah. I am so happy to be here.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (03:07.15)
So for folks who might not know you yet, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your work?

Jen Knoch (03:13.016)
So I’m a book editor by trade. That’s what I do during the day. And that has actually some climate overlap. did things like develop a carbon calculator for the whole Canadian publishing industry. I published some eco books. Our publisher is a B Corp, one of the only two publishers are B Corp in Canada. Shout out to ECW Press. So I do do some climate work as part of my regular job because, you know, any job can be a climate job.

and then you can find me on the internet. have a sub stack that is just mildly neglected because I kind of did a regiment and then I finished it, but I couldn’t quite give it up. So it’s called five minutes for the planet. And if you like stuff about actionable items that you can do to take control of some of this hellscape, that’s what I got for you there. and then I’m.

As you said, I’m on Instagram, can’t kick that habit either. And so, and there I’m usually posting about urban gardening, about climate, waste reduction, pioneer hobbies, food security, that kind of thing.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (04:22.754)
Pioneer hobbies.

Jen Knoch (04:24.462)
Yeah, I give it if it peaks before World War one, I’m probably doing it. That’s nice.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (04:29.762)
I call mine granny skills. So we’ll talk about that a bit later. So I usually ask folks to tell me about their suburbs because suburbs are not a monolith. But you do live in the city of Toronto. I also used to live in Toronto. So I know it’s a collection of neighborhoods that are also very different. So can you tell us about the area that you live in and how that fits into your life in the city as a whole?

Jen Knoch (04:55.31)
Yes, so I am originally from the suburbs. So I have the credentials of understanding the suburban experience profoundly. I grew up mostly in Burlington, but now I live in the annex in Toronto, which is a very lovely, wonderful neighbourhood to live in. I’ve lived here about 15 years. And so we have great transit access and walkability, but plenty of our own challenges, namely things like housing security.

I’m a renter, which I mentioned partially because of some of the things we’re going to talk about today that I think are still available to renters. And also just because like, Hey, lots of us do that and housing crisis, et cetera. So if you’re a renter, I feel you, I see you. There are so many things around climate that aren’t available to us, but there are many that still are.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (05:47.022)
Renting is often seen as like not as good as being a homeowner and transient. And that’s just simply not the case. So I’m very glad that you said that. And we’re going to touch on all of that a little bit later. But first, as I mentioned earlier, I first connected with you when I was really struggling with processing all of my climate emotions in all caps. Because while I often talk a lot,

on this show, at least about like love and joy and compassion and care. There’s also plenty of frustration and grief. And if I’m being honest, there’s a lot of rage in there too. But being engaged in all of that doesn’t mean you have to stay stuck. We have to move through these things together. So can you tell us about the climate emotions retreat? Like what inspired you to create it and what it’s all about? What a day like looks like at the climate emotions retreat.

Jen Knoch (06:42.922)
Yeah, I love the opportunity to talk about this. So part of the reason I did it is because having feelings about the climate crisis is somehow socially unacceptable. That caring about the future of this planet and all the beings on it is a real downer or a bummer or a buzzkill. And you should talk about celebrity gossip instead or something.

And it can be really isolating to feel like you’re the only one who’s like crying because, you know, an indigo bunting just hit the window. And this is a recent example for me. But so it’s really this kind of unsanctioned grief is the term that psychologists use, which often, which can apply to other things too, like pregnancy laws, for example, where like society just doesn’t really get it.

And then you think you’re all alone, which is again, if we’re using our psychological terms, something called pluralistic ignorance, where you feel like you’re the only one, but that’s not true. That’s actually not the way it is. we know that we need to be resilient in the face of, well, everything that’s happening now and everything that’s to come. And you can’t be resilient all by yourself. That’s just not how it works. Not in the face of this huge snarl of problems.

And most people do have feelings about the climate crisis, I think, on a certain level. Just some of us maybe feel it a little more, a little more keenly. And so often the feelings that we have, and I think I love that you expressed this range because they’re all there. Everybody’s at the party. And if we can’t face them because they’re maybe unacceptable even to ourselves,

We live with all this unprocessed anxiety and ambivalence and repression and like, that’s not good for anyone. And that’s not helping the problem. Because then if we’re stuck in avoidance and denial, we can’t do anything about it. And I recognize too that we think that climate action is driven by like our rational self.

Jen Knoch (09:01.42)
This is like, again, like in psychology, they talk about like, you know, there’s a rider on an elephant and like, you think the rider’s in charge, but like, guess what? Like not true. And so our little brains, they’re trying their best, like our little rational selves. But ultimately the being in touch with how we feel allows us to take action that’s in a lot, like to honor those feelings, to process them, to not get mired down in.

all this repression and to do things often. I also really love to say like to stress that like, and this is Joanna Macy really, you know that like your tough feelings are not bad. They are not a problem. They’re a sign that like that you’re alert and you’re compassionate and that you care like.

They’re showing you that you are still a human being alive in this world and like that’s beautiful. So even our tough feelings are sometimes a sign of something good. So the retreat itself was partially inspired by the work of Margaret Klein-Solomon who is a psychologist and also a writer. She has a book called Facing the Climate Emergency, which is great. And also by the way, published by NNN.

A plus Canadian publisher in terms of sustainability called New Society Publishers. They were the first B Corp. We were the second. we do a lot of, I do a lot of work with them because they’re amazing. So good, a good indie to support if you’re inclined. Anyway, so it was a lot influenced by her because she did, and she still offers this, an online program called Climate Awakening, where you can sign up at a time to connect with strangers from around the world.

And she kind of has these prompts and then everybody gets a little time to say their piece in response to those prompts. And I did one of these at one of those times when I felt so overwhelmed and so alone and just desperate. And even though like the idea of essentially like having a Zoom with strangers to talk about your darkest things is horrifying in a prospect and I’d rather do almost anything else it seems, it was

Jen Knoch (11:22.936)
actually really therapeutic to have even that one hour where this could be a thing that we could connect over where I didn’t feel alone anymore, where I felt seen and heard, where you just saw there are other people who feel this. And so after I did that, I thought, well, like that was good, but what if there was more? And I have some friends who have a piece of property and then just

the city and they’ve always offered it, they’re activists and they always offer it for activist purposes or art purposes or whatever. They’re wonderful, generous, inspiring souls. And so I said to them, what if I did this? What if I did a day retreat and they were all in and so what we do on this day, which we do about twice a year in the summer and in the fall.

We come together and we have facilitated conversation, facilitated by me. And we kind of have three big conversational sessions throughout the day, but we also do like beautiful yoga, looking out over the fields and the blue sky. And we go for a silent walk in the woods and we have opportunities to practice.

regulation of ourselves. We do different meditation things, different trying to give people more tools, but also just an opportunity to connect with like-minded people who also feel this deeply to be inspired by them often, to just be seen by them, to practice taking care of each other. like, which isn’t, we’re used to caregiving within our family units.

because that’s like socially sanctioned, but like this kind of just like generosity and care and looking out for strangers and being like, I noticed you’re squinting into the sun. Do you want to switch seats or like, you know, do you want to have some of this food or let me pass you this or whatever? So to me, it’s this like beautiful unplugged, you know, essentially workday length thing where we’re able to be in nature, be with each other.

Jen Knoch (13:44.066)
and talk about the stuff that it feels like we can’t talk about anywhere else.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (13:48.598)
It’s fascinating how sometimes it’s easier to do that with strangers.

Jen Knoch (13:52.822)
Yeah, totally.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (13:54.732)
There aren’t any of those barriers in place. You aren’t performing your role, whether it’s in your friend group or your family group or at work or whatever. You have, it feels like there’s even more permission to really authentically feel what you’re feeling and really connect with that other person on a human level.

Jen Knoch (14:12.91)
Absolutely. But okay, since we have this moment, tell me, tell me what it was like to be there and not be me.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (14:23.062)
It was really beautiful, precisely because everyone was there for not the same reason, but a similar reason from a place of deep caring and seeking connection, and also a place of willingness, of willing to be vulnerable, willing to regulate, because we do live in such a culture of outrage and yelling and attention seeking.

It feels that way sometimes. To intentionally be slow and quiet. The silent forest walk was really transformative in that way because it’s interesting to see how everybody abides by those rules of like, let’s just be quiet and introspective, but be together. And I’ve really carried that with me ever since. And that’s why I’m coming again.

Jen Knoch (15:17.738)
Yeah. that’s, that’s really nice. Thank you. That’s, that’s really great to hear that. I’m glad that was the experience and, know, we’ll continue to evolve and continue to be there as long as people want to come. And I should also say like, this is a whole nonprofit endeavor. All of the money gets donated to indigenous climate action. And this time we’re having it on indigenous people’s day. So that’s nicely along.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (15:44.542)
Yeah, I noticed that and I thought that was really special and I know that we’ll be talking about that. So I’m really looking forward to it this year. What would you say to someone who thinks that feeling it won’t fix it?

Jen Knoch (15:57.518)
I mean, you’re going to feel it kind of regardless. think it’s like these are, these are all, the meditation teacher Sharon Salzberg likes to talk about emotions like guests in your home. And some of those guests are going to be noisier. Some of those guests are going to stay longer, but they ultimately they’re not you that you’re not, they’re not the home. They’re just passing through and eventually they’ll leave.

And I think that we sometimes think that ignoring it and suppressing it will make it go away. But if someone’s screaming in the room next to you in your house, you’re not going to be able just to chill and have a good time. So I recognize that it is so hard to feel these things. And I am not a person without anxiety, for example.

And I do think it’s not that we have to be like dive into the deep end all the time. And one of the things that we’re practicing on retreat is, you know, going deep and then pulling back and recalibrating and allowing ourselves to find some groundedness in our bodies and the world. So it’s not an all or nothing that you have to like just plummet yourself into the depths of despair on the regular, like all the time. But I

Do you think that reckoning with those emotions, these people who are guests in your home and kind of at least being reasonably polite to them, allows them maybe to leave sooner or to become a different kind of guest, like the one that’s not dominating the party all the time and is a little less unruly? mean, ultimately this is about getting familiar with these

more difficult things we go through. I do think that the things that we like doing, we know that doing hard things, like if we’re weight training, we know that that makes us stronger or you love cold punching, like, God, that’s like, that is tough. But you face it and you know that it didn’t kill you. And that maybe the next time you can

Jen Knoch (18:21.558)
spend a little longer in the tub or you can be with your rage a little and be like a little bit more comfortable being with your rage rather than it just being like subsumed by it like curtain of blood drops, you know, kind of feelings. I was like, yeah, I got those too.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (18:44.046)
It’s so interesting that you’re talking about like plummeting and pulling back. it makes me think of this book I read last year. I think I talked to you about it, Earth and Soul by Leah Rampe. And she talks about ecosystems life on the edge. at the edge of a forest or the shoreline, a borderland between a grassland and scrub, that sort of thing that these, she calls them edge zones. So these edge zones are where life is very precarious.

but also where it is transforming the fastest. And we’re very much in one of these edge zones right now in our life on the planet. And that can be either a place to fall or a place to fly and both take courage.

Jen Knoch (19:29.294)
For the permaculture people out there, I’m sure there’s a few. Edge zones are really important in your permaculture design. That’s a really rich ecosystem to investigate and consider.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (19:44.056)
So while we’re talking about ecosystems, let’s shift gears here a little bit. Because of course, as we’re recording this and speaking of anger and frustration, it’s impossible for us to not talk about what’s going on in Ontario right now, which is bringing up a lot of climate emotions for many of us. So this past week, our conservative provincial government passed something called Bill 5.

which is being touted as an economic bill or like a red tape reduction bill. But in reality, what it does is strip away vital environmental protections and give more power to developers. So some of the highlights, lowlights would be that it would repeal Ontario’s Endangered Species Act. It would block access to renewable energy projects.

It would sign line indigenous rights and consultation and create what they’re calling quote, special economic zones where developers can simply ignore local and provincial laws. So it’s, it’s an attack on ecosystems and communities that so many of us care about. And honestly, I’m just sort of left feeling like serious and heartbroken, but also more determined than ever to protect what we can. So.

How are you feeling?

Jen Knoch (21:18.414)
Similar. It’s devastating. It’s a devastating setback. It’s infuriating that this is democracy. And I think like, oh, special economic zone or cool. Like, you know what else is one of those? Like the tar sands. We don’t need that. And also, so many of these things are done like

supposedly for me, like me who can’t own a home. And I’m like, hold on. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This isn’t what I asked for at all. I don’t want this. And I think the good news is that people are going to fight hard in the face of this. And you already see some of the acts of resistance that are coming up around it. I mean, there are people in the legislature when it

was past protesting, there are people outside the legislature. And I know that groups like EcoJustice, etc. and grassroots groups, that there will be another thing to fight. What kills me about this government is that we need to be moving forward, we need to be doing more.

And we need more aggressive policy in terms of climate action. And instead, what we end up doing is fighting these rear guard battles to like save the green belt from corruption, from actual corruption. we spent how many years and how much resources like had to go into that fight. Just because

a certain group of greedy people feel that economic good is the only good that matters.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (23:18.966)
We live in a society, not an economy.

Jen Knoch (23:22.476)
not an economy.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (23:24.096)
And let’s be paved over the greenbelt. Toast can never be bread again.

Jen Knoch (23:30.75)
No. it’s like totally overlooking the ecosystem services if we’re going to speak an economic language like that Greenbelt provides. Like, enjoy the mass flooding, you know, enjoy, or in this case, enjoy the poisoned water from your ring of fire mining or whatever the case may be.

Jen Knoch (23:56.366)
It’s incompatible with a just and healthy society. And it is fundamentally devastating to see that this is something that the majority of our elected officials think is a good idea.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (24:20.748)
Yeah. And I’m just nodding along to elected officials because I mean, did not vote would have won the last election, which is also very frustrating because it feels like, this is again, is why it’s so important to connect with other people because you feel like you’re the only person that knows about it, that cares about it, that’s fighting against it. And there is such power in our collective action. So like what, what can people do like either practically or emotionally right now when these policies feel like.

the gut punch that they really are.

Jen Knoch (24:52.75)
the best thing is to contact your elected official, your MPP, let them know that you fundamentally disagree with this. Call, write, sign those online petitions from environmental defense and all these other groups like Ontario nature. There’s tons of groups putting together petitions. You can donate money to the nonprofits that do things. I am thrilled to support eco-justice and have them in the courts.

challenging Doug Ford wanting to rip out our bike lanes that he just installed one year ago, which is really like my red rage comes in hard on that one. But that’s what an amazing use of my money that both EcoJustice and Cycle Toronto, who’s a great collective advocacy group in Toronto for the rights of cyclists, to see them in court, like making progress.

that’s like such a such a relief. So you may not I know, like the economy, like we’re talking about this because it’s not great out there. But if you do have money to spend or time to give, Collective Action can do that. There are going to be plenty of opportunities to stand outside Queen’s Park and yell a bit with a sign. And that can be feel really good.

When not many people show up, it feels pretty bad. Then I have to give myself a big pluralistic ignorance kind of like lecture being like, just because people aren’t here doesn’t mean they don’t care. Don’t cry in front of Queen’s Park again. Which I wish was not such a recurring thing that’s happened to me. But yeah, that’s another thing you can do. And then I mean, emotionally finding people that you can talk to about it.

like-minded people is great, especially if those like-minded people will go to the protests with you, for example. And also big fan of a stupid little walk. You and I are both devotees of the mental health walk. I do one pretty much every day. And this is a beautiful time of year. The peonies

Jen Knoch (27:11.694)
are popping any day now. mean, by the time this comes out, maybe we’re off, but like there is always something beautiful happening in nature and just like moving your body and a gentle rhythm on a day when the air isn’t actively harming you like today. So let’s move a step back on the old mental health regime.

Jen Knoch (27:38.894)
Today we are at worst air quality, like the 11 plus, which I think, okay, why did we make a scale that goes beyond 10? I don’t know. Yeah, it goes to 11 plus, which like speaks to the moment, I guess, where like 10 can’t cut it for how bad things are. need the F minus of air quality. So, yeah, so take care of yourself.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (27:47.328)
It goes to 11.

Jen Knoch (28:06.702)
Do whatever regulating activities are your jam, figuring out what those are and dispensing them liberally. There are lots of days I don’t want, I’m sure you too, don’t want to go on that stupid little walk.

I almost always feel at least a bit better. There are birds out there and migration, know, is happening. So there are cool birds, like not your average house sparrows.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (28:26.359)
out there. Yeah.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (28:35.362)
But all of these things that you’ve just mentioned are, we have three options, right? We have like fight, flight or freeze. So sometimes you just have to freeze and take care of yourself, but take all of this and turn it into fight. And there are so many amazing organizations that have already have structures and procedures and everything in place that you can join. Don’t think it like you have to start something or whatever. There are folks out there who are doing the work. Find them.

And even if you have $5 to throw them like that, that can go a long way. Yeah. They can fund a court case or an ad, like the campaigners, whatever it is, like all of it, all of it matters and all of it moves the needle. So all of these will be in the show notes for you because Jen’s been so generous and mentioning like 25 things so far. I’m going to make sure that they are in the show notes because there is something for everybody to latch onto.

So you mentioned the peonies. I have yet to successfully grow a peony. I’ve given up on that.

Jen Knoch (29:40.488)
This is my first year of having one bloom. there might be hope. Yeah.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (29:45.91)
My lilac bushes finally bloomed for the first time in the 11 years since I planted them. I think this says something. So you mentioned earlier that you live in a city and you live in a rental, but you still grow things. why does that matter so much to you if it’s quote, just a rental? Cause I’ve heard that before too.

Jen Knoch (30:08.558)
Mm-hmm. So I was really fortunate to come into, so first of all, the big old backyard. It’s pretty large. It’s a shared house. And then we have a big backyard, a big long backyard. And when my best friend actually lived downstairs in this house before I moved in upstairs with ideal friends type arrangement, really can’t do better than that, I tell you. And she started gardening here.

because there already was kind of an established garden. Our next door neighbors were an Italian family, where there’s a long gardening tradition. And Vito Sr. started the garden here. He cut the lawn in exchange for growing tomatoes in our yard because it was sunnier. And so bless Vito. So he had started this bed and then my friend moved in and he was slowing down and she took it over.

And although he would still like hang over the fence occasionally and like provide feedback, like in like a gentle way, like, know, like, your seeds are too close. You don’t put two babies in one cradle, like, you know, gems. And so she and I started gardening there together and then I moved in here and…

Now it’s about a 650 square foot garden. So it’s like roughly the size of my apartment is also the size of my garden, which shows you a lot about my priorities maybe. I’d also rather do the chores out there than in here. And it’s about 50 % food plant, like food, and then maybe about 40 % cut flowers because I developed a real love of.

flowers and flower arranging and cut flowers are very expensive, but not that hard to grow a lot of them. And then there’s like a lot of plants for pollinators. And then there’s like maybe 10 % is just pollinator plants and a few ornamentals. The front yard, the front lawn should be, I wouldn’t really call it a lawn at all, is now all pollinator plants, which is cool. So I’ve just devoted that space. Like that’s for them. And every year more of the scrubby turf gets turned into.

Jen Knoch (32:21.646)
habitat for our local pollinators. yeah, so I’ve been growing there for about 15 years and it is one of my great joys in life. I wish that everybody loved gardening and I know that there are some people that they’re like, I’m gonna try this, it’s not for me. And I’m just like, I’m gonna try again.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (32:48.078)
That’s okay, we still you. I’m sure.

Jen Knoch (32:50.35)
But people feel that way about other things. But I love gardening as a practice of care because really it’s about like observing the plants, trying to address their needs. It’s a good practice of failure, which is a necessary corrective to me, daughter and elder millennial. So that’s an important practice for me.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (33:15.31)
You can just put up to see resilience.

Jen Knoch (33:18.21)
totally practicing resilience. think that watching a seed grow is the most miraculous thing in the world. You start with one seed and then you could end up with thousands. Like the sheer abundance and generosity of nature and which one absolutely must go read Robin Wall Kimmerer if that appeals to you because she is the high priestess of that.

And she says all flourishing is mutual and in the garden is the perfect illustration of that when you see how it functions as an ecosystem.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (33:56.192)
I constantly have reading sweetgrass on my audio book platform. I always have it on there and I listen to a chapter on my stupid mental health box. If you haven’t read it yet, I do recommend the audio because her voice is utterly transformative when she’s telling her own and her chapter on gardening and motherhood and moving into

Jen Knoch (34:17.005)
with sunshine.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (34:24.61)
being a grandmother just takes me to my knees every time. It’s truly beautiful. So I highly recommend, even if you’ve read the book, listen to the audio as well and really let it get into your soul.

Jen Knoch (34:39.022)
And if that book is too, maybe you’re really pressed for time and you don’t want, reading isn’t your thing. Her new book, The Service Berry is very, very short and condenses so many of the key ideas in her work, especially around community and generosity and abundance. And it would take you, I don’t know.

an hour to read. And you can also listen to her audio of that either on an audiobook platform, I’m sure, or if that’s not your jam. The essay that the book is was originally published in Emergence magazine and they have the audio on their feed. And so you can listen to her read it. And honestly, I feel like that’s like a vaccine that I need to get regularly. Like just give me the booster, give me the update. And I guess like that’s

That is one of my practices too, is like turning to the wise ones and that’s Robin Wall Kimmerer, that’s Rebecca Solnit, that’s these other writers and thinkers who helped me realign my worldview. Yeah.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (35:45.646)
It’s very grounding. It’s very simple, but it’s very, it’s very rooting, I suppose. It’s not even grounding. It’s very rooting. I just feel very held by those words. And sometimes that’s what you need to be able to regulate so that you can move forward.

Jen Knoch (36:06.062)
Absolutely. And which is gardening too. literally, like you’re helping with the rooting and it is a rooting thing.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (36:15.256)
It’s really well illustrated, I think too by there’s a building being torn down across from you or in your neighborhood. And I’ve just sort of been watching your documentation of this happening, but you did a little plant rescue from the chair. Tell us about that. That felt so symbolic to me.

Jen Knoch (36:29.57)
Yeah.

We’ll call it a rescue. The little line of permissions is maybe a bit tenuous, but it’s fine. It worked out. There was a house not that far away that was being demoed or was slated for demolition. They had the signs up to be like, this is going to be a…

I don’t know, this many units or whatever, which actually great. I’m like all about mid density housing, which is what they’re putting in there. No opposition to this project for what it’s worth. There was opposition though. It just not for me. Anyway.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (37:09.368)
We’ll about NIMBYism another time.

Jen Knoch (37:11.726)
Yeah, plenty. there was this big, because it was an older house, there’s like this huge front lot because we didn’t make our houses take up like the entire lot that they sit on once upon a time. there was, and it had obviously been a garden that was very well tended once and had started to go a little bit wild because I’m sure the people who lived there were aging. And there was this beautiful rose bush that I used to admire on my mental health walks.

If you asked me for a mental map of where certain plants are in the neighborhood, I can tell you, I got it. And I would always stop and admire it. And then I found out that the house was slated for demo and I was talking to another friend in the neighborhood. And I was just like, these are those bushes that are like probably decades old. Some of them are going to get plowed under like that’s we should get them.

And my friend Tess put a note in the mailbox and actually connected not with the owners, but with people who did a really cool art project in the house before it was demo. So they brought in a whole bunch of graffiti artists and they all did different rooms and they painted it and turned it into a work of art that lasted for about two or three weeks. You could go and visit it and watch through other rooms. And so that was very cool. And we went in one day and we

dug out the rose bushes and other plants that we thought we could save. like huge resistance, huge, a hole so big I could sit in it, in the one that I took. And I was worried about it. I was like, this has been here a very long time. We’ve done our best, but this is a tough transition. And I brought it to my yard and it kind of, it did not thrive.

And it’s first, it also like, had to do it then. wasn’t like, you know, sometimes when you’re moving plants, you wait for the optimal time. That wasn’t an option. We did on this blisteringly hot day in like July, not a great time to a rose bush. Anyway, it didn’t thrive, but I was like, you know what? I’m not going to give up. Let’s just see, see what happens through the winter. And then maybe it just goes in the trash and we did our best. Because gardeners kill plants too all the time. Don’t let, don’t let that be a thing.

Jen Knoch (39:31.406)
Um, and I am so happy to say that, uh, she rooted, put on all this new growth and maybe I really hoping she is maybe the first rose to bloom in my garden this year. Um, like we’re days away and, uh, and I, and to me, this symbol just kills me every time because.

Things can be really bleak. Like, winter. And nature reminds us that it’s not final. Like, that the story continues. And so, and that things, nature is incredibly resilient. And that with the right care, she can thrive. And…

So yeah, I’m really honored actually to have this heirloom now in my garden and a little piece of the neighborhood that now that house is just like a pit. It’s just a pit. Like I also went and took a bunch of spring bulbs this spring. And then like the next day it was like the wrecking ball. don’t, it wasn’t actually wrecking, whatever. It came in and I was truly like, whew.

Just in the nick of time, those daffodils got a relocation.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (41:01.594)
We talk about heirlooms as objects, right, that are sort of passed down for families, but this is such an amazing neighborhood, neighborly transfer of like a wealth of knowledge and love and beauty. And I’m not almost crying, it’s fine.

Jen Knoch (41:20.824)
I have several heirloom plants in my yard actually, and they’re labeled with where they came from and whose they were. And then I know in every spring I see Uncle Dave’s violets or like Marv’s hostas. And I’m reminded of them. And if that was the only way that someone remembered me, that’d be okay.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (41:46.166)
Yeah, I have some periwinkle that I took from my Nan’s house. I’m all in my emotions right now. And I know it’s invasive and it’s just going to spread everywhere. But I see those little purple blooms in the spring and I just, think of her and that’s something you can never buy.

Jen Knoch (42:05.422)
No, no. I wouldn’t on the day of my grandfather’s funeral. I planted a rose. My first rose bush actually I bought because he grew roses when we were, when I was growing up and when we moved them out of their house, couldn’t rescue them. I regret it, but I couldn’t rescue any other roses. And so I bought one and I planted it on the day of his funeral. And, know, I’ve never been to his grave. Like that, I don’t, that doesn’t hold anything for me, but

Every, I spend several months a year with this rose that I planted in his memory. that’s better to me.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (42:42.924)
Just going through the range of emotions today, but I think that that is a huge part of it is you just have to let yourself feel it and understand that there’s beauty and grief as well.

Jen Knoch (42:53.838)
Grief is an indication of love. There’s no grief without love. there are lots of times we would rather, we would like to do without our grief because it feels like a really heavy price to pay sometimes in the moment. But yeah, I try to always remind myself like the greater the grief, often the greater the love.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (43:18.35)
spirit that you have of tending and care also really shows up in how you show up to the folks in your community as well.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (43:29.294)
So let’s talk about the energy that you put into mutual aid as part of climate action. So I’m seeing you do work with your food co-op and stocking the little free pantry and seed swaps and going to the native plant church sale and all of these beautiful ways that you engage in community care. So where did that start for you?

Jen Knoch (43:55.872)
Hmm. That’s a good question. I don’t know where exactly it started, probably early pandemic time or maybe a bit before that someone planted a seed in me about mutual aid. I think that was a time when a lot of us learned a lot more about it. And I just like feel like maybe we should

take a moment to say like even what mutual aid is. Because I think sometimes we kind of have this foggy idea about it, but basically mutual aid starts from a place of people deserve. You know, people deserve food. People deserve a safe place to live and things like this. People deserve health care. So many good things that people deserve.

And so mutual aid is really a non-hierarchical way of organizing that is people showing up for each other in the ways that they are best able. And so there are all kinds of mutual aid groups out there. They could be around prison reform. They can be around food justice. They can be around all kinds of like abortion access, all kinds of great worthy mutual aid.

organizations. The one that I’m most involved with in Toronto in a kind of more formal capacity is Community Fridges Toronto, which you might guess is helping share food in our community. We have several fridge locations around the city, fridge and pantry, so things can be refrigerated and so fresh food can be shared. We set up at a lot of the farmers markets in the summer and bring a lot of beautiful farm fresh food to those fridges. But really,

And also we do food rescue. a couple of times a week I’ll take food from the co-op that, you know, isn’t bad, but is past the point that they can sell. And so it’s like milk that expires, or expires, milk with the best before of tomorrow or something. And bring that, and which I should say, like even in a small grocery co-op, who’s incredibly attentive to not producing waste, unlike some of our big grocery chains.

Jen Knoch (46:14.454)
I still can bring a garbage bag full of food twice a week because bread, for example, is a big thing. We actually see a lot of bread in the pantries because bakeries, like when it’s a day old, they don’t want to sell it anymore. And fresh stuff. There is so much abundance. so that’s one organization that I’m involved with, I guess, kind of like more.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (46:28.046)
There’s so much of my.

Jen Knoch (46:39.298)
a more formal organization. But I also think that there are so many amazing ways that you can do community care or mutual aid or whatever you may call it without that. So for example, I am a member at our local grocery co-op, Shout Out to Karma Co-op, which has been around in the city for 50 years, was founded in part by the great Jane Jacobs who lived on my street, incidentally. That’s my celebrity brag.

And so at the co-op, is obviously, there’s a lot of like-minded people who care about sustainability, who like things like gardening, who like things about food. And we didn’t have a seed library there. And as we say, seeds are such a tremendous source of abundance. you let one bean dry inside or like seeds for six more beans, for example, which can then make

I don’t know, depending on the kind of bean, like 10 to 50 more beans.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (47:44.127)
the last of the Blue Lake beans that you gave me at the last climate emotions retreat. So.

Jen Knoch (47:50.232)
my gosh. I’m having a little moment about that heirloom. See, that’s like, that’s an annual, but it’s still an heirloom.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (47:56.402)
I of you, when I pick them, like, these are the beans from Jen and I’m going to have them in my salad. And maybe it’s like six beans, but it’s a way that we are connected and that we have shared. And when that ripples out across how many seeds, how many seed libraries, how many gardens, how many neighborhoods. Yeah.

Jen Knoch (48:14.742)
Right. yeah, like seeds are teachers in so many ways, but yeah, so I started, I just said, Hey, we could have a seed library. And the manager said, okay, if you want to make it. And so I did. And I do things there to like teach workshops periodically so that can share skills around say like native pollinator plants or growing seedlings for food or winter sowing. And a cool thing is that

one of those workshops, of the participants came up and said, you know, like I really, there’s an opportunity for these climate action grants. And like, I really think there’s something to do around this kind of like food growing in our community. And like, can I talk to you more about this grant? Like, are you interested? And so Andrew and I worked with a couple other people on putting forward a grant and we got it. And now we have a community garden education program where called Toronto Common Harvest.

where we teach people, we were able to buy actual materials, give them to people, teach them some things, and then encourage them to grow and to share what they grow at the community fridges or just in their community. And so that’s a neat illustration of one thing leading to another, leading to another. I was thinking a little bit the other day about how

But community building is a real intangible thing. it sounds like networking. And I remember being a young professional and the very idea of networking giving me the ick. And it still does, if I’m honest. But I think that’s because I didn’t understand really what it was. I thought it was like, had to go to a party and walk up to a scary person and basically cold call them in person.

which is a terrible strategy. Also, don’t do that.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (50:14.926)
It’s a different kind of networking though. It’s like a mycelium network instead of a LinkedIn network where we’re not trying to get something from you. We’re trying to share something from you.

Jen Knoch (50:24.952)
We’re trying to share and we’re working with the relationships we have and like those relationships branch out over time and you get to know more people and then and now people say to me like, I know you do a plant swap every year. Like, can you do a plant swap at the clothing swap? And I’m like, heck yes, I can. Because I already attend the clothing swap and I love it. It’s amazing. So like, let’s share plants there. So.

So a lot of that has been organic and it’s been real. So once you kind of get that momentum going, you start knowing more people and building relationships. You start, you can do more things together. There are more opportunities to come together and rescue a rose bush or start a seed library or create a whole garden program or whatever it might be. And these are things I should stress that like give me great joy.

Ultimately, yeah, sometimes there’s some administration or some whatnot that you don’t want to do something around emails. But the actual human part where you can like, give someone hands on a packet of seeds and be like, here, take this, let me tell you about how good they are and why and like how you can grow them or like give someone a new skill is so wonderful in that our common harvest, our first meeting, it’s like a room of like 25 strangers.

And everybody has something to talk about because they’re all there for gardening and they’re all excited. And the age range was like nine to like 74 probably. And I just felt like what a wonderful space to be in. And I wouldn’t be here. wouldn’t know these people. And now I walk down because it’s based in our neighborhood. I can walk down the street and see people and say like, Hey, how’s it going? Like what’s…

What’s happening with your garden? So I think like you could get into it and be like, well, I really should do some mutually. And I think that’s the right thing to do. I think that’s what a good person does. okay, if that motivates you, cool, do it. Like I said, eldest daughter, elder millennial, I get it.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (52:43.022)
Yeah, come for the shud and stay for the joy.

Jen Knoch (52:46.542)
Stay for the joy, stay for the real moments of connection. There are some days where going and putting a whole bunch of beautiful food in the community fridge feels more fulfilling than whenever I did on Zoom that day. And I feel like, wow, this food is going to be in the bellies of someone who needed it hours from now. And if this weren’t here, it wouldn’t be. And like, man.

That is a tangible thing. And so much of our lives has become weirdly intangible. And so a lot of these community connections can be restorative in that way.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (53:27.438)
Yeah, I mean, the way that I speak with folks on the trails that I see, like when I do my bird box monitoring, for example, like that’s a very solo activity. I’m part of a group. I accidentally joined this bird watching group as one does. But, and we come together and we have like pub nights or whatever and that’s, that’s all fine and good, but where…

Where it really feeds my soul is inevitably someone asks what I’m doing. Another person in the neighborhood is walking by and asks what I’m doing. And I tell them, and they said, you know, I walk by these all the time. I had no idea what this was. How can I get involved? And I’ve recruited three people over the course of the last little while just to come along with me.

I’ve taken a forest school group out with me and you just never know who you’re going to meet, who you’re going to run into, who’s going to be inspired, who’s going to change your life. It’s a spider web of…

Jen Knoch (54:23.24)
of possibility.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (54:24.704)
opportunity of possibility of this is where we actually move the needle. Like we can bitch on social media all we want and like, do that too. And there’s definitely a place for that. But what it really comes down to is doing the work and doing the work doesn’t mean that it has to be difficult. And it doesn’t have to be guilt driven or shame driven because I don’t believe that those are learning tools. It’s finding what lights you up and doing that.

Jen Knoch (54:51.508)
Exactly. Exactly. And I think also sometimes it’s like you get there’s some bad advice out there that’s like, well, whatever skills you have, bring those to the group or whatever. And like, honestly, yeah, I could. I’m a good copy editor. But like, do I want to like, I don’t know, sit at my computer, copy editing 100 pages for Greenpeace after I clock out for the day? Like, not really. So for me, it’s also been useful to do things that are a change of the channel.

that like move us, move me into a different physical space. And a lot of these community things are like creating little temporary third spaces, which I think is really cool. I mean, there’s lots of grumbling about a lack of third spaces in our world, which I think is more or less true. But you can also create them. A wonderful thing about gardens and I think all natural spaces, and this is part of why we do the retreat outside, is that like you

people are just more comfortable. think generally, it can kind of put us more at ease. And I’ve had conversations again with these like near strangers in my program who come to my yard to pick stuff up. And like the conversations have gotten deep real fast, real fast. And I’m like, we’re essentially strangers. And now you’re telling me about like your history of mental health problems and your like LSD use therapeutically or

we’re talking about caring, like palliative care for a pet and like, you know, like just like stuff that where I’m like, wow, I wouldn’t have expected that’s certainly not happening at the supermarket. And, you know, and, and it’s not happening in a lot of our spaces, but there is something about the space, I think. And also, as you say, kind of like getting to know new people, like not feeling like you have to adhere to certain

boundaries of the self that maybe allows us to reach across in different ways.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (56:52.494)
I think we just feel more human outside.

Jen Knoch (56:55.756)
Mm, I do.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (56:57.26)
We just, feel more human and then we are able to feel as humans. There’s just more depth of feeling or I don’t know if it’s because we’re more vulnerable, like physically in our, in our brains, like you’re more vulnerable as a mammal outside or what have you, but we’re more vulnerable, but we’re more comfortable.

And so a lot of all these other barriers, your, your role, your job, your income, all of these, they all just fall away. Nobody cares what you’re wearing when you are sitting on the grass in a field talking about your emotions. So true.

Jen Knoch (57:32.398)
comfortable pants, you know?

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (57:34.382)
This is a waistband free zone.

Jen Knoch (57:37.422)
That’s right. We’re gonna make our discomfort emotional, not physical at this retreat.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (57:43.039)
But…

Perfect. Yeah, I think just these small acts of connection and care really do matter and doesn’t have to be a huge sweeping gets national attention thing. It can be as simple as sharing a packet of seeds. So that brings me to my favorite part of the show. It’s a little segment. I call it one small shift because this show is at its core going to be about making sustainability feel doable.

not, I mean, huge concepts are important to break down and understand and talk about, but then we all are left with the question of like, well, what do I do? What can I actually do? So what’s one small thing that folks can take away from this episode, a small shift that they can make, whether it’s a tiny habit or mindset shift that will help somebody who’s maybe feeling overwhelmed. What’s one baby step they could take today?

Jen Knoch (58:41.358)
This is actually so hard to choose because I actually feel like there are so many small sustainable actions that give me big joy. And I also think that that’s important because that’s how we refuel ourselves. But anyway, you know that. Okay, so, but I did choose and mine is to go for a bike ride this week. And if you don’t have a bike, you can probably borrow one. There are like great bike shares in a lot of places.

just go on a little trip, do an errand, do something. Bikes are miracles of engineering. You can go so much farther, you can carry heavy loads. One of the top decisions of my adult life was becoming an urban cyclist, which is to say, just learning how to do it and be courageous enough to do it. Truly.

Like if I think of like the things that I’ve done in the last decade, that’s one of the top ones. because it has given me so much joy and freedom and allowed me to connect with my neighborhood and my city in a way that I couldn’t otherwise. and, my bike on the crossbar, says through this ride freedom. And I think that bikes.

are the ultimate expression of freedom. Really, they make you more porous too, like more alive to the world. So much of this stuff about the climate crisis is because we’re traveling in our little bubbles, insulated from the effects of it. And if you’re on your bike, you feel the heat and the rain and the plants, the petals fall off, the flowers of the trees on you. And I think it is actually like a divine sensation to ride with bare arms.

in like a warm weather and just like feel that gentle breeze on your skin. It’s like breaking can be like flying. And also it’s, you I firmly believe one of the ways we need to get around our cities in order to make them more sustainable, make traffic better, increase air quality, all of these things, bikes are the solution too. And if you’re scared,

Jen Knoch (01:01:02.36)
I was scared. was absolutely scared. And by, you know, riding with a buddy and taking back streets and going slowly, eventually I used to like ride across, like an hour across the city to go to work. And that was great. So get out there.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (01:01:22.126)
Let’s go ride bikes as the kids. We used to jump on our bikes and throw them down on somebody’s front lawn and the burps. And that’s how you knew where everybody was. Let’s go ride bikes.

Jen Knoch (01:01:24.408)
Go Rybaks!

Jen Knoch (01:01:32.974)
Exactly. Exactly. And like, and I feel most like a kid when I’m riding a bike again often, because sometimes you’re just like, whee! You know, keep your wits about you. Don’t go Meg Ryan’s City of Angels. That’s, you know, that doesn’t go well. But it is so joyful.

I love packing my bike full of heavy stuff. Like I do this food rescue. It’s always full of plants in the summer. I’m taking plants around. And I just feel like I’m winning. I do all my groceries on my bike. I don’t have a car. And it can be really heavy, but it’s not. It’s not on my bike. Anyway.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (01:02:14.51)
What a feeling of power.

Jen Knoch (01:02:18.472)
And it’s so, it is so empowering, truly. And cheap and efficient and sustainable. And like I said, just joyful. It’s, that’s the best.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (01:02:34.03)
Thank you so much for being here, Jen.

Jen Knoch (01:02:37.006)
It was so fun to cry with you on the internet.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (01:02:42.595)
Before we go, where can people find you and learn more about the climate emotions retreat?

Jen Knoch (01:02:46.242)
Hmm. yeah. So the climate emotions retreat is usually on Eventbrite. But I always post about it on my sub stack, which is called 5 minutes from the planet. And I post about it on my Instagram, which my handle is jknock, K-N-O-C-H. It’s tricky. And we also have, there’s a link there to a mailing list if you are interested in this kind of thing, but this probably won’t come out before this.

retreat, I’m sure, but in the fall, if you want to find out when we’re doing it, that means you’ll be the first to know.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (01:03:21.014)
And we hope to see you there. We do. Jen, thank you again so much for sharing your perspective and your heart with us today. I think folks are going to walk away from this conversation feeling not just seen, but reminded that we can keep going if we stay connected to each other and tending the places that we love and building care into our communities. So thank you.

Jen Knoch (01:03:44.426)
So good. I’m so glad.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (01:03:46.126)
Jen, thank you so much for sharing your perspective and your heart today. I think a lot of people are going to walk away from this conversation feeling not just seen, but reminded that we can keep going by staying connected to each other, tending to the places that we love and building care into our communities. If you enjoyed this conversation today, I’d love for you to stick around, subscribe and tell all your friends. I also share weekly-ish sustainable living tips and updates through my newsletter. You can sign up.

For that, anytime at sustainable in the suburbs.com or just check the link down in the show notes. You can also find me on Instagram at Sarah Robertson Barnes. And I always love hearing what’s resonating with you or how you’re building care into your own life. Until next time, start where you are, use what you have and live a little greener.

Thanks for tuning in to Sustainable in the Suburbs. Every small step adds up and I’m so glad we’re doing this together. If you enjoyed this episode, please make sure to follow the show, share it with a friend and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. You can find me at sustainableinthesuburbs.com or at Sarah Robertson Barnes on all the things. Until next time, start where you are, use what you have and live a little greener.