Ep. 52: Building a Sustainable Kitchen — What Actually Matters with Naomi Hansen

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (00:01.142)
What if the most eco-friendly choices in your kitchen aren’t the ones that look the most sustainable? Today we’re talking about food waste, climate action, and why building a more sustainable kitchen is less about doing everything perfectly and more about knowing where to focus. Welcome to Sustainable in the Suburbs, a podcast for the eco-curious who want to live a greener life and are looking for a place to start. I’m your host, Sarah Robertson Barnes, a soccer mom with a station wagon and a passion for sustainable living.

Each week I’ll bring you practical tips and honest conversations to help you waste less, save money, and make small, doable shifts that actually fit your real life. Because sustainable living doesn’t have to be perfect to matter, and you don’t have to do it all to make a difference. Hello and welcome back to Sustainable in the Suburbs, the podcast where we start where we are, use what we have, and live a little greener, one small shift at a time. My name is Sarah, and I’m very excited to chat with you about your kitchen today.

Before we get into today’s episode, just a quick reminder that this show is now bi-weekly with new episodes coming out every other Tuesday. So please make sure that you’re following the show wherever you’re listening today so that you don’t miss an episode. And if you’ve been enjoying the podcast, one of the best ways to support it is to leave a rating and a review, share an episode on social media, or click support the show in the show notes. And of course, be sure to head over to sustainableinthsuburbs.com for all the podcast episodes and show notes.

The blog and everything else. I talk a lot on this show about making sustainable living work inside real homes, which means I often end up talking about the kitchen because so many of our everyday choices pass through that room in one way or another. In most homes, that’s where the main garbage can is. It’s also where we unload the groceries and the meals we make and the food that we use or forget about the packaging that we’re dealing with, the scraps.

And just the rhythms and routines of our daily lives. That’s why I always say that climate action begins at the kitchen table. Not because the kitchen is the only place where sustainability matters, but because it’s the heart of our homes and so many of our choices begin there. But today’s episode is not about building some perfect version of a sustainable kitchen. It’s more about looking closely at the choices we make every day and a way to understand what actually matters.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (02:23.022)
Because if you’ve spent any time in sustainability spaces, you’ve probably heard a lot of advice about things like bringing your reusable bags and metal straws and just recycle better and of course avoiding plastic. Some of that advice is very useful and some of it is more complicated than it looks. And I think that’s why so many of us are left wondering where to actually focus our energy, what makes the biggest difference, and whether the small things we do at home really matter.

My guest today is Naomi Hansen. She is an award-winning author, journalist, and food writer based in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. She is the author of Only in Saskatchewan, a contributor to publications like Chadelaine in Canadian Living, and the Saskatoon Bites Food Columnist for CBC Saskatchewan. Her new book, Building a Sustainable Kitchen, A Practical Guide to Prioritizing the Planet from the Heart of Your Home, explores the connections between food, climate change,

waste, consumption, and the everyday decisions we make in our homes. What I loved about Naomi’s book is that she doesn’t approach sustainability as an all or nothing pursuit. Through research, interviews with experts, and her own experience in making changes at home, she looks at what actually matters, where people can focus their energy, and why some of the most impactful actions available to us aren’t always the most obvious ones. Today we’re talking about sustainable kitchens, food waste, climate action,

What surprised her during the research process and why individual actions still matter, even when they aren’t the whole solution? Here’s my conversation with Naomi.

Hey Naomi, welcome to Sustainable in the Suburbs.

Naomi Hansen (04:01.39)
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It’s great to be here.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (04:04.556)
I’m so excited to meet you and I’ve been looking forward to this conversation because your book speaks to everything that I talk about on the show, food waste and climate action and what sustainability actually looks like inside a real home. So yeah, I’d love to start with how you got there. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what led you to writing Building a Sustainable Kitchen?

Naomi Hansen (04:29.39)
Yeah, absolutely. And I when I was looking at podcasts and yours popped up, I also felt that I was like, this is a perfect match for my book. Exactly. I’ve I’ve sort of long been interested in sustainability, but if I think about the starting point for this book for me, I would say it goes back to about twenty eighteen. writing a book about sustainability was not on my radar really at the time, but

In 2018, I undertook a very small project on my personal Instagram where I was trying various sustainable lifestyle initiatives at home and just kind of reporting the results to a small group of family and friends on the app at the time. This was a very small audience and these were very amateur videos, nothing, nothing overly aesthetically pleasing. But I had started this project because I was feeling increasingly anxious about climate change and had a lot of climate anxiety.

Particularly because in 2018 I can remember a very bad wildfire season in Saskatchewan. And it was sort of a turning point for me where I mean, we had had wildfire seasons prior to that. But I mean, as a teenager, I can remember, you know, no wildfire seasons as a kid. I don’t remember wildfire smoke. And it was feeling like it was just, you know, increasingly common. Every summer it was getting worse. In the summer of 2018 for me, I really was like, okay, this is this is happening, climate change is happening, it’s not going away.

and so I was looking for ways to sort of get involved or mitigate my own carbon footprint. And at the time in 2018, I decided to just sort of jump on the bandwagon of low-waste living, which was really kind of everywhere at the time, right? Like social media, popular media sources. It seemed like everywhere you looked, people were holding up their trash can of their mason. Yes, exactly.

so I decided, you know, to get involved in in that space. And I bought, you know, reusable goods like beeswax wrap, stainless steel straws, all that kind of stuff. We started a backyard compost, and I was really just becoming increasingly intense about recycling, composting, what’s going in our trash can, that kind of thing. Now, then of course the COVID 19 pandemic happened. And so some of these things that I had been doing, particularly outside of the house,

Naomi Hansen (06:52.96)
sort of kind of fell to the wayside. You know, bringing your own reusable things to public spaces was no longer an option, understandably, of course. And so some of those things kind of went on the back burner. But I mean it was always still sort of in the back of my mind. And I meanwhile wrote my first book only in Saskatchewan. And when that book was done, I kind of knew I enjoyed writing a book. I knew I wanted return to return to the topic of sustainability.

And so I started pitching article ideas to publications about lifestyle sustainability. And this was partially like a part coping mechanism for me, part because I wanted to do some of the research anyways. but I ended up writing about things like are compostable plastics actually compostable? Can beef be sustainable? I see you shaking your head. No. food waste, all these types of things, many of which are topics that are covered.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (07:45.582)
Yeah.

Naomi Hansen (07:51.094)
In greater depth in the book, Building a Sustainable Kitchen. but for me, it was kind of a way to sort of see, I guess, peer a little bit deeper, peer into some of that. Okay, what are the big impact actions here? And what I learned from sort of working on those articles was that when it comes to sustainability, there’s sort of a lot more to the story than just buying reusable kitchen gear, recycling, those types of things that I had been doing initially. And you know, those things are not necessarily bad.

But the reality is that those actions kind of just scratch the surface of the depth and all the the reach that that individual action can have. I think one of the easiest ways to think about it is that those actions are on the right track, but this track is maybe just a little bit more complicated than than we might think. So anyway, all of these realizations and this writing I had been doing turned into eventually the idea for building a sustainable kitchen, which I started working on in 2013. So

been a w or sorry, twenty twenty three. my gosh.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (08:53.87)
Time is a flash.

Naomi Hansen (08:55.896)
I get it. I get it. Yes. my gosh, a 13-year book. I mean, people do that, right? So no. 2023, I started working on building a sustainable kitchen. what year is it? No. but yeah, I it doesn’t matter yet. but yeah, what I really wanted to do with the book was just to kind of do a deep dive into some of the topics that I had already been been working on and kind of explore the space where food and the kitchen intersect with climate change.

and how those things intersect because when you sort of dive into that, it’s it’s clear that they do intersect very clearly.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (09:33.91)
Yeah. You describe this aha moment very early in your book, which is like the bamboo toothbrush moment where you’re just sort of standing there brushing your teeth, like, what am I doing? and I’ve I’ve had I’ve had very similar realizations. So one of the things I say all the time is that climate action begins at the kitchen table. And I mean that in a lot of different ways, whether it’s the actual food that you’re eating or the conversations that you’re having. I know that can sound really simple because climate action feels so big.

And focusing on, you know, sustainable swaps and the kitchen can start to feel like a band-aid on a on a much bigger problem, the toothbrush, if you will. but the kitchen touches so many parts of our lives, all of it. We spend our life in the kitchen, you know. so I love how this book shows that the kitchen is a portal into much bigger questions about food waste and climate and how we live. So let’s nerd out a little bit about that, shall we? Yes.

Naomi Hansen (10:32.276)
Yeah too, yeah.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (10:34.794)
Yeah, so you very clearly described the kitchen as a portal, as a gateway into larger sustainability issues. So what did the kitchen reveal to you once you started looking a little more closely?

Naomi Hansen (10:46.466)
Yeah, I mean the kitchen is I I use that portal idea kind of right in the introduction to introduce the topic because the kitchen is the heart of the home. It’s central to our everyday lives and what we do on a daily basis. And I think the portal idea for me is that the kitchen is really connected to either

wider climate problems or wider climate solutions. It can kind of go either way. And like you said, I mean it it might not feel like that on a daily basis, but it is true. And it applies to a number of things, you know, even like household garbage is linked to the landfill or daily use of plastics is linked to plastic pollution. so on and and so forth. And that’s really how the chapters in the book are structured. I sort of built them around this framework of the why, you know, how is this thing linked,

to broader to broader environmental issues and and climate issues and and then you move into sort of the how, how can you sort of address those things? but I think in in terms of thinking, you know, about food in the kitchen in general, when most people think of climate action or climate change, they don’t tend to think of food first and foremost. I mean, when I think of greenhouse gases in particular, the image that comes to mind is cars. Like that’s

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (12:09.016)
That’s kind of

Naomi Hansen (12:09.422)
Yeah, you know, like the industrial stuff, which is absolutely part of the story. I mean, that that is definitely definitely important. But I think for me, one of the things is that burning fossil fuels, of course, is is the main source of human caused greenhouse gas emissions. But the global food system itself is actually responsible for about a quarter of of human caused emissions. About twenty six percent of all emissions come from the food system.

So that’s I mean, that’s not nothing, right? And those are coming from those emissions are coming from a variety, a variety of sources, you know, whether it’s the fuel used for agricultural, machinery, fishing boats, transportation, whether we’re talking about food waste rotting in landfills, producing methane emissions, fertilizer use, management of manure. It’s sort of it’s sort of a number of things that come together to make up

percent of food system emissions. And that’s just talking about emissions. It’s not actually even talking about land use, water use, biodiversity loss, all of these other things. But I’ll give you an example sort of zooming back on this portal analogy and then and then zoom into sort of the kitchen here. But one one example that I that I really like is food waste because it’s it’s a very direct connection. So when food waste

Rots and landfills, it produces methane gas, which is of course a potent greenhouse gas. we can be part of the solution here in our own kitchens by simply not throwing food in the garbage and also reducing the food that we waste as much as possible and and composting whatever is left. And that is very sort of simple. It’s very everyday, it’s very basic, but it is linked to this larger problem of methane emissions from landfills.

very straightforward example of of that portal idea. And and you know, it it may feel like, I’m just throwing these whatever spaghetti leftovers in the trash. You know, how significant can that really be? But I mean, food waste emissions are are are a huge thing and and it is it is significant. So there’s plenty of examples like that that come out come up, sorry, in in the book repeatedly of this idea of just a basic thing when you look at it collectively and also sort of cumulatively.

Naomi Hansen (14:28.734)
it it’s linked to to a larger

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (14:32.896)
It’s one of the most direct and powerful climate actions that we can take in our own homes, times that by millions of homes. And yes, it absolutely makes a difference. And that’s what I was gonna ask you. Like, what are some of the ways that our kitchens connect to climate change that people don’t immediately think about? And I think that’s that’s the main one. I love there’s a great chapter on how to start composting in the book as well, with a shout out to Miss Frizzle, which

I heard me laughing. I appreciated that.

Naomi Hansen (15:03.56)
I actually I was just gonna say I had debated putting that in there. I’m like, are people do people remember Miss Frizzle? But then my editor was like, yeah, they they remember.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (15:15.418)
I used to be a high school teacher and like aspired to be Miss Frizzle and I think I pulled that off in a couple of ways. So I still want to be her when I grow up. I loved it.

Naomi Hansen (15:24.714)
Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. It’s even even sorry, go ahead. Fine. I was just gonna say other other things that feel one that I’ve been particular particularly kind of reflecting on lately is is also plastics, which feels like a massive global problem. Like how can we even possibly address this from our own homes? but

One of the things that I just keep coming back to with that is that some of the most common single-use plastics that end up in coastal environments around the world are actually food-related ones. So, you know, like beverage bottles and caps, plastic straws, produce bags, grocery bags, food wrappers. and those are things that we use on a daily basis for many people, you know, or even, you know, a weekly basis. And

What would be kind of astonishing is that you could in theory trace back, you know, a food wrapper on a beach somewhere to your use of it at some point. And so all of these things are of course connected. You know, it’s easy to feel removed from them. But when you sort of zoom back in and look at what am I doing on a daily basis and and how is that linked to these larger things, I mean, there’s there’s very sort of direct, direct links there and and and it comes up again and again.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (16:41.666)
The ocean example is so important because I think both of us are sort of in landlocked Canada. but I went to university in Nova Scotia in the 90s and I remember seeing plastic floating in the Halifax Harbor. And that was the that was like my first intro to ocean plastics. I’d never thought about it before and I couldn’t wrap my brain around how that was happening. but that I think is part of my my villain origin story. Yeah. As far as plastic free goes. Yeah.

Naomi Hansen (17:06.018)
Yeah.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (17:11.126)
So I there’s a section toward the end of your book. And I think it’s really a thread that’s running all the way through. But it’s that the most sustainable actions are not always what they seem. And the ones that look the most sustainable from the outside might not be doing as much as we think. so for example, composting isn’t cute. It’s not, it’s not aesthetic. it doesn’t make for a great Instagram post. But I think that’s a really useful way to talk about this because

I think there’s this idea that like if I’m not doing it perfectly, it’s not worth doing. and you know, we’re choosing with real life options. Like I live in a in a suburb. I talk about that all the time. I have to drive everywhere, I have to go to Costco, I’m limited in my options, but and we all have like different information that we’re getting and budgets and time and and the systems where we actually live. So I I also love that you call that sustainability and an unsustainable culture. That hit really hard for me.

so what are some of the sustainability assumptions that changed for you when you were researching the book?

Naomi Hansen (18:14.434)
Yeah, I think this is this is really a huge thing. And I think breaking this down is important because it helps to make sustainability more accessible and approachable. one of the things or a a very typical assumption I think or assumption that I’ve at least made in the past is that, well, if you want to be sustainable, you know, you need to live sort of around the corner from a zero waste store and do all your shopping there and do all your shopping.

at you know a farmer’s market and you’re you know just storing things in glass jars and and there you go right and what I love about even the idea of you know being sustainable in the suburbs is that a lot of the things that come up in my book, you know, reducing food waste, for example, if we just keep going with that example, it’s like you can do that anywhere. You don’t need to live anywhere specific to do that.

You don’t need to really have an elaborate setup. You don’t need any sort of secret background knowledge, right? It’s like this is a practical thing that anyone can implement in their home and it’s it’s kind of accessible and and it’s approachable and it will save you money in the process too, right? Big bingo. Yeah, right.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (19:34.784)
very much how I try to put it to folks is that you we’re throwing out up to eighteen hundred dollars worth of food per household in Canada every year which is crazy that’s a that’s a housing payment I can’t I can’t and it’s and sixty three percent of that could have been eaten

Naomi Hansen (19:43.254)
Yeah. Yeah.

Naomi Hansen (19:51.566)
Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And and I think so there are sort of a few actions that stand out sort of at the end of the book. I talk about this. and two of them in particular are the food waste reduction at home, but also choosing to eat more plant-based foods, shifting at least n not necessarily fully, but at least partially to sort of a plant forward diet. And

Those two actions kind of top the list because of their capacity to reduce greenhouse gas emissions over time. the that information comes from Project Drawdown, which is a highly regarded nonprofit, I’m sure you’re familiar, yeah, with their work. And they have this list of the 20 most impactful actions that a household or individual could adopt. And on that list, I mean, there’s a number of things you would maybe expect to see, like adopting solar, using public transit, carpooling, those types of things.

But the number one thing on the list is plant-rich diets. And the number two thing on the list is food waste. And in terms of being number one and two, they’re very close. They could almost be like tied for first place. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. but those two actions I think are are are things that are maybe not

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (21:00.065)
And their sisters.

Naomi Hansen (21:11.278)
promoted to the extent that other actions are are promoted in in sort of an ex aesthetically pleasing, you know, reduce your carbon footprint way. But those are really the things that, you know, if you want to focus on something and you want to sort of maximize your impact or get the biggest bang for your buck in terms of reducing your carbon footprint. I mean, those would be the things to to sort of focus on. And then the third thing would be following the waste hierarchy, which has been, I think, you know, a little bit more widely

widely known. but in particular in order focusing on the refuse and reduce aspects, followed by, you know, reuse and then recycle and compost. But I do think that sometimes we tend to sort of zero in on the reuse and the reuse in in a sense of buying reusable things, but not necessarily reusing what you already have, which is kind of the key, the key point.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (22:07.276)
We already have what you need to do this in your house. Yeah.

Naomi Hansen (22:10.368)
Yes, yes. And so following the waste hierarchy in the correct order, of course, reduces or sorry, it saves energy, it saves time, it saves resources along the way and and it sort of saves environmental actions along the way. as well just in terms of, you know, the the resources that would go into something like recycling, right? Which which which can be a little bit intensive. But but

Coming back to that key point, I mean, food waste, eating more plant based foods and even just focusing on reducing in general, these are things that, like I said, can kind of be adopted regardless of of where you live. And you don’t need to have access to sort of anything that is particularly started. No, you don’t.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (22:59.99)
You don’t need a refill store. Yeah. If there’s things that you can’t do, like it’s fine. That’s you can’t do them. You don’t have yacht money. Like you’re fine. Try to do the things that you can actually access in your home. And almost all of those are centered around food.

Naomi Hansen (23:14.476)
You can only do what is available to you. If you live somewhere and you don’t have, let’s say there’s no organics program, let’s say there’s one or two grocery stores and there’s not even like a, you know, bulk bin store or anything like that, you have to sort of just work with what’s

within your region and and what you can access. And of course there are ways to let’s say, you know, advocate for an organics program near you or or or those types of things. But in general, if sustainability is going to be adopted more broadly, which it needs to be, it has to be something that anyone can can adopt. You know, there have to be principles that can be adopted sort of regardless of where you live. And so that doesn’t mean,

Grocery shopping in one specific way, or it doesn’t mean, you know, always I’m trying to think of another example here, but

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (24:13.132)
To go out and get all the reusables that that you see online. Like you probably don’t need them. Yeah. And something like, you know, like I’m just thinking of the example you mentioned earlier, beeswax wraps like versus plastic rack. Like that’s amazing. But what really matters is are you eating the food inside of either wrap? Yeah. Where is that going to end up? Because that that is the biggest bang for your buck there.

Naomi Hansen (24:35.222)
Yeah. I actually was recently having a conversation with someone about you know, how do you reduce plastics in your kitchen and and what do you replace them with? And I one of the things that I think is important in what do you replace them with is well, what do you already have? What do you have in your kitchen that you could use in place of those plastics? What’s the function? and do you have anything that can kind of replicate that function without going out in

Buying something else. And I think for many people, the answer is probably yes, right? Like, you know, you can reuse things that you may not have thought for their original purpose, or maybe you, you know, have a good example is I was trying to eliminate tinfoil. And I talk about this in the disposables and reusables chapter of the book, but I had been using tinfoil to cover things up in the oven and cover them up after they came out of the oven. And very simply I

was like, I have lids for these pans. You know, they’re stuck they’re stashed in the back of the cupboard. I completely forgot about these two like dishes with corresponding lids. And also, yeah, I mean, comes out of the oven, you can just like put a plate or or a pan on top. so it’s kind of that idea of being sort of innovative and crafty almost, you know, with the things that you already own.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (25:39.753)
Upside down on top of it.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (26:02.05)
Yeah, I love that’s the my one of my favorite things about sustainable living is the resourcefulness. You know, like how can I guy for this to be something else? Yeah, that’s honestly that’s my favorite part. how can people start? I ask this all the time and I don’t know the answer. How do we start without getting overwhelmed? Like if someone we all I think a lot of us really care and we’re trying, so where should we maybe focus first?

Naomi Hansen (26:28.322)
I think that’s a it’s a really good question. and I do think it can be sort of easy to get overwhelmed when you feel like you have to do everything. I was actually just I was volunteering the other weekend at this native plant market in in Saskatoon and I overheard a conversation of these two people who were talking at a booth that I was sort of adjacent to.

And just talking about how the fact that it’s impossible to do everything, but within their own friend group, everyone was sort of involved in a different thing and they were covering a number of issues kind of all collectively together. and I just remember like I was sitting there and I was thinking, yeah, like that’s kind of what this is all about, right? It’s not possible to do everything all yourself. And it’s it’s not even possible to necessarily do

you know, everything all at once, even sometimes like I I’m more focused on let’s say food waste at one point, and then I’m more focused on this at another point. And you know, you kind of just do what you can within the space and the time that you have. But what I think is kind of key to remember is that these things do add up. These these things are part of the collective. They do add up over time. And c when we think of collective action, I mean

A lot of the times I think people are like f maybe feeling like being part of the collective doesn’t matter or collective action in general, maybe it doesn’t matter. But collective action can be traced back at some point to individual action. Like collective action starts somewhere and it often starts with one person, right? Like it’s it’s very much sort of it grows, right? It it’s it’s not this this thing that you can’t identify.

and l I do think that people struggle with the idea of being perfect or it has to be all or nothing, but it really doesn’t have to be all or nothing to make to make a difference. There is an example that I really like that comes from the book. And it’s it’s a packaging example because I think packaging is kind of it’s it’s kind of a tough one. but essentially it’s it’s this idea that

Naomi Hansen (28:54.626)
Let’s say every week you go to the grocery store and you avoid 10 pieces of packaging. Okay. So you could be doing this changing how you shop. let’s say you’re shopping using your own cloth produce bags or your own reusable whatever. You’re just putting stuff loose in your cart, or even you’re subscribing to a program like like Odd Bunch or something where you’re getting stuff in a box and it’s coming without packaging. But either way, whatever you’re reducing 10 pieces of packaging a week. In

A month this turns into 40 pieces, and in a year it turns into 520 pieces. And if you keep doing this for a full 30 years, just avoiding 10 pieces a week, it turns into 15,600 pieces of packaging avoided. Which if you piled that into a visible heap, that’s certainly not nothing, right? Now if you take it

One step further and a group of a hundred people does this exact same thing for 30 years just avoiding 10 pieces, it becomes 1.5 million pieces of packaging, which is staggering. A hundred people, a group of a hundred people is not really that many people, right? Like that’s that’s a that’s actually yeah, it’s kind of a small group of people, right? so I think even if let’s say even

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (30:08.686)
Three cost rooms.

Naomi Hansen (30:16.534)
If there’s a limit to what you can feasibly do, and let’s say that limit is avoiding 10 pieces of packaging, whether that’s, you know, for reasons beyond your control based on the sort of stores that are in your in your area, or maybe it’s just like this is all I can do, like this is what I can commit to. This is my capacity right now. that’s still significant, right? Of course, of course it matters.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (30:41.068)
Yeah. That’s what I was gonna ask you. I mean, like I I just really I really struggle with the idea that individual action doesn’t matter. I get this feedback which is like, individual action doesn’t matter. It’s corporations have to change, the government has to change. And like, yes. And those things are made of people. And people can be influenced. Yes, like people notice what you do. Your kids notice, your friends notice, your neighbors notice. I had the

the couple next door were asking me, they’re like, What what’s happening with your clothesline? I was like, Well, what do you mean? Because I’ve been yelled at by my clothesline by the lady behind me. And I’m like, Well, just don’t look at it, Terry. But anyway. And so they they asked, they asked me. and I was like, what do you mean? And they’re Well, we notice sometimes it’s there and sometimes it’s not. Like, how are you doing this? It’s like, it’s this laundry umbrella, and you can put it in the ground and then you can use it. And then when you’re not using it, you just fold it and put it away in the corner.

What? Where can I get one? Like, I did it. And it’s just from seeing it over the fence. And, you know, like I give them garden seedlings and and all that kind of thing. So it does trickle out even to, you know, my in-laws last time I was over there. I’m just noticing like, I’m sorry, is this a block of dish soap?

Naomi Hansen (31:41.214)
Yeah.

Naomi Hansen (31:57.102)
Yeah.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (31:59.31)
What? I did it. I didn’t even tell them or buy it for them or anything. They were just like, well, we noticed that that’s what you do and we’re gonna try it. I’m like, my God. Yeah. So people, yeah, people can be influenced and people will try things because they see us do it first. And the more that you talk about it, the more you’re going to find out that the people around you are interested or are doing similar things. Or like you mentioned with that group at the plant sale, that everyone’s doing.

something but it’s a little bit different and like my gosh I didn’t know that there was this birding group or I didn’t know we had a climate group here in our region. How do I join? Because but you just have to talk to people and that’s a huge part of it. So this is a very long-winded way of asking how do you respond when people say that individual actions don’t matter?

Naomi Hansen (32:47.778)
Yeah, I mean, that’s something that comes up a lot. And I address this in the introduction to the book because I just felt like I had to, right? Like it’s in the kind of get ahead of the question. Yeah. one of the things that I have a hard time with is the idea that when this question is asked, it’s often kind of with the assumption that

Individual action, particularly in the context of large global issues, is pitted against collective action. It’s like these two things are the options and we have to pick one or the other, and we can’t have both. and I don’t think that that’s true. I think we need both.

individual action and collective change. And I think they’re important for different reasons. And and I mean, like you said, it’s like any sort of system wide change, yeah, people are people are involved in that, right? There’s individuals making choices that that are involved in those systems. And this is kind of one of the the key conclusions from the book is that we need both of these changes. If we even just go back to that conversation about the 10 pieces of packaging.

A week, well, maybe one of the reasons you can only reduce 10 pieces of packaging a week is because of the stores around you and the way things are packaged and things that are fully beyond your control, which in that case it’s more of a conversation about system level change. So on an individual basis, yes, you can reduce your 10 pieces of packaging a week. But beyond that, if you were able to reduce, let’s say 20 pieces a week, well, that’s probably going to be a systems conversation. And so these kind, these two kinds of change are

both important and and both sort of i think influence each other as well to to a certain extent. One of the biggest sort of arguments for individual change for me comes back to Project Drawdowns list of solutions. And on their main list of their there’s almost a list of almost a hundred solutions. I think it’s somewhere in the 90s, but they have this list of their 100 climate solutions. And these

Naomi Hansen (35:03.736)
Solutions are system and individual changes. But one third of the solutions can best be effectively addressed by individuals and households in particular. And the rest are sort of system level things. But one third is a significant chunk. And these are some of the things that that we’ve already talked about, like yeah, reducing food waste, plant-rich diets, composting, all that stuff. But one-third, I mean, that’s that’s a lot more than you might.

think where both of these types of things are kind of you know working together in in this larger sort of solutions list. So so I think that kind of using the those numbers is is helpful to just sh sort of, you know, show the show the perspective on yeah, there there’s a significant amount of things here that that are actually really important for that people could do at home and that do sort of do have an impact.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (36:04.984)
And there’s a zero percent chance that doing those one third of things are not influencing the other two thirds of things.

Naomi Hansen (36:12.089)
yeah, for sure. Yeah. Right.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (36:13.506)
Like if you’re out, if you’re frustrated and you’re out in your community, you’re always picking up litter. So I pick up up I pick l litter up all the time. Pick makes me crazy. So that’s fine. So I can do that as an individual and I can I can pick up the litter all the time. This is a very niche example, but then I can go home and I can write an email to my ward counselor about how we need more trash cans in the park. So now I’ve kind of addressed both levels. And if you extrapolate that out, that is how you begin to influence systems change.

Naomi Hansen (36:41.368)
So the other side of some of this for me is that I think it’s fair to acknowledge that some of this is not necessarily about you and me and our own personal ability to do something, like let’s say avoid packaging. Okay. So for example, I really like the example of cucumbers and how cucumbers are packaged, which

It makes sense that you would maybe just not put any plastic on cucumbers, right? Like if you want to avoid cucumber packaging, why are we putting packaging on cucumbers? But the reality is that wrapping cucumbers in one layer of plastic extends the shelf life of them for up to two weeks. And that’s significant from a food waste perspective, right? Like that’s easily the difference between eating the cucumber at home and and not eating it. And so sometimes there’s these sort of

competing priorities or these trade-offs that come up. And the idea of the trade-offs, that appears repeatedly in the book, you know, this idea of sustainable this or that, like food waste reduction or packaging. and you kind of have to, you know, pick one or the other, weigh the priorities. And those are things that need to be addressed on a systems level for sure. Right. Like it’s it’s challenging to make some of those decisions. And it can be tough for people, I think, if you feel like

you have to sort of be perfect or choose the right thing and you don’t know what to choose. but I think it’s okay to sort of say, I’m doing what I can here and we need more to be done on a systems level. And these things can coexist at the same time and they don’t have to sort of cancel each other out or or pick one or the other. They can very much be two things that we’re working towards. And then

when they are both sort of happening, they can influence each other because if the cucumber packaging changes, let’s say, then you can also reduce more packaging, right? Like these things are very much linked.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (38:43.276)
Yeah, I’m so glad you used that as an example because I’ve gotten some messages before about how I go to the reduced produce section at our grocery store and they they just wrap everything in saran wrap, but I can get like eight pounds of bananas for like two dollars. Otherwise, that’s going in the track. Cause the grocery store is and it’d be wrapped in plastic and the grocery store is not composting. so

Naomi Hansen (39:00.82)
And it’ll be wrapped in the pocket.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (39:08.654)
It’s an that’s a no-brainer to me. And it took me a really long time to get there. Where before I I just feel like if you find yourself having a way too much anxiety over making these choices, that’s where you know it’s not your choice to make. But then you can influence the system in that way. Like write an email to somebody, call your MP, whatever it is. That’s you do have an action there, even if it’s yeah, I was just going to the bad place with plastic. And I’m so glad I’ve come out on the other side and it was all tied to food.

Mm. Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds like you got there too by the end of your book.

Naomi Hansen (39:39.309)
It’s everywhere.

It’s that it’s really tough because I think packaging is is really a frustrating thing because you think once you start working to reduce it, it’s gonna be sort of easy. And then you’ve realized that it’s everywhere and it’s not easy, but it’s because, you know, in large part, packaging can actually be functional. In our food system, it solves a lot of logistical problems like preventing cross-contamination, shelf life.

if there’s, you know, labeling that needs to go on something. And and so logistically, in many cases it’s serving a purpose. In many cases, it’s excess and it does it doesn’t need to be there. But because it does have a function, it’s really tough just as an individual shopper to sort of avoid it in in certain cases, particularly with, you know, certain types of food. It’s a lot easier with loose produce and and dry goods and and what have you. But I think

the grabbing, you know, the bananas at the store from the discounted section, that’s one of those things where it’s like it looks like you’re not making a sustainable choice, but you actually are. And that’s where it can feel a bit tough because you know you you want it’s it’s tough to communicate that to anyone who might be seeing you, right? Like, I’m actually I’m gonna save these bananas from

From the landfill, right? Well, yeah, you are. but it doesn’t appear to be the sustainable choice in the moment. And I think that’s kind of where some of the challenges are. But for me, it’s just kind of like, well, if people ask you questions about that, you you have an answer, you know, you you know what you’re doing and and you can explain yourself. And you just have to sort of do the best that you can, sort of with with the knowledge that you have.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (41:32.878)
Yeah. And I just it’s such a great example of what you articulated. The most sustainable thing is not always what it seems. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So before I let you go, I always put my guests on the spot at the end and ask the same question. Yeah. It’s a lightning round. I’m just kidding. So I do a segment called One Small Shift because I do think everything starts with just doing that first thing. and it’s okay if it’s small because, like you said, these things compound. So

I know we talked about how sustainable swaps are a little surface level. but what is one sustainable swap in your kitchen that you think is truly worth it? Like something that is the key to the portal that will open up a bigger shift in how people think about sustainability inside their homes.

Naomi Hansen (42:18.478)
One that I personally actually really like is cloth napkins, which I bought during that 2018 shift. And we sort of repeatedly use them over and over again. I bring them out when we have people over. I bring them to if I’m hosting something, like I was doing a bridal shower a couple years ago, I brought them there, and they are I

huge conversation starter because the amount of people who will be like, I actually have some of these stashed away in a cupboard as like a fancy napkin option. I could be using these, right? they’ve they’ve just started a lot of conversations about sustainability. And they’re also something that I fully intend to sort of have for the rest of my life because if they get a rip, I can just sew it up with my sewing machine, you know, you can get

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (43:17.393)
I meant mine as well.

Naomi Hansen (43:18.518)
Yeah, you can get they stains out of them easily. And I mean, they can also be then if if they were looking so terrible that they could no longer be used as a napkin functionally, you can use them as a rag after that point, right? So that’s just kind of one of those things where it’s it was an investment and it’s something that I’ll continue to use. And I think my issue with some of the sustainable swaps is maybe that.

That’s not the case where it’s not something you can continue to use forever. Beeswax wrap in particular, I mean, that has a limited lifetime. I think it’s 300 or some uses, gets, you know, too sticky and and whatnot. But when there’s something that you can genuinely invest in and then continue to use forever, I think to me that’s worth it. Another example would be like a cast iron pan, you know, a wood cutting board, things that you can.

take care of, use, maintain, and they sort of maximize their lifetime and and minimize their their environmental impact because of that.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (44:27.17)
Yeah. I love the cloth napkin example because it is for me a portal into not using paper towels anymore, which is something I can’t stop talking about.

Naomi Hansen (44:36.103)
Yeah.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (44:38.302)
Well, Naomi, thank you so much for coming on today. And I loved, loved, loved your book. It was, I just tore through it. I think I read it in like four days. I loved it so much. So yeah, I’m gonna put a link to it in the show notes so that everybody can get your book, Building a Sustainable Kitchen. so where can people find you and learn more about your work?

Naomi Hansen (44:58.062)
So they can find me at naomihanson.ca. there’s more information about the book there. I’m also on Instagram at Naomi Hansen Rights, W-R-I-T-E-S. And on my website as well, there is a corresponding resource guide document to the book, which is just a free downloadable PDF with tons of links. There’s

it’s broken up by chapter and it’s all the things I used kind of in the process of making my kitchen more sustainable. and dives into additional sources if people, you know, want further reading, more information on a whole variety of topics. but that’s also at naomihanson.ca. And the book is available, you know, wherever books are sold. of course, if you can shop local or support an independent bookstore, please do. or, you know, check it out at the library. It’s in

Libraries across Canada already. So

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (45:53.966)
of options. Fantastic. That’s so great. Thank you so much for coming on. This was an awesome conversation. And I just really appreciated just the way you brought like research into real life and the idea that sustainability belongs to all of us.

Naomi Hansen (46:06.894)
Well thank you. I I appreciate that very much and it was a pleasure to be here with you today.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (46:12.526)
Great, thank you so much.

I hope this conversation gave you a clearer sense of where to focus your energy in the kitchen. Not because any one household can do everything, but because there are a lot of meaningful things to focus on, even if they aren’t Pinterestworthy. You can find Naomi’s book, her website, and the resources from today’s conversation in the show notes. And I will also include links to past blog posts on food waste, low-waste cooking, composting, and using what you already have. And while you’re there, you can sign up for my newsletter where I share practice.

ideas for reducing waste and building a more sustainable life in a way that actually works. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, start where you are, use what you have, and live a little greener.

Thanks for tuning in to Sustainable in the Suburbs. Every small step adds up, and I’m so glad we’re doing this together. If you enjoyed this episode, please make sure to follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. You can find me at sustainable in the suburbs.com or at Sarah Robertson Barnes on all the things. Until next time, start where you are, use what you have, and live a little greener. This podcast is produced, mixed, and edited by Cardinal Studio.

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