Ep. 50: Practical(ly) Zero Waste with Elsbeth Callaghan

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (00:00.844)
A lot has changed since 2020. Kids have gotten older, life looks different, and a lot of the perfection that surrounded zero waste in those early online days has fallen away. But underneath all of that, the values are still the same. Welcome to Sustainable in the Suburbs, a podcast for the eco-curious who want to live a greener life and are looking for a place to start. I’m your host, Sarah Robertson Barnes, a soccer mom with a station wagon and a passion for sustainable living.

Each week I’ll bring you practical tips and honest conversations to help you waste less, save money, and make small doable shifts that actually fit your real life. Because sustainable living doesn’t have to be perfect to matter, and you don’t have to do it all to make a difference. Hello, and welcome back to Sustainable in the Suburbs, the podcast where we start where we are, use what we have, and live a little greener, one small shift at a time. My name is Sarah.

And today I am beyond thrilled to be sharing my 50th episode with you. And if this podcast has become a part of your week, I would appreciate it so much if you left a rating and review wherever you’re listening today. You could also click the support the show link in the show notes or share your favorite episode on social media with folks in your life who might enjoy it too. Just to remind you that the show is now being released bi-weekly for the foreseeable future. So new episodes will come out on the second

and fourth Tuesday every month. So please make sure that you’re following the show wherever you’re listening today so that you don’t miss a new episode. For everything else, blog posts, episode transcripts, newsletter, you can find all of that and the show notes for all of these episodes over at sustainableinthesuburbs.com or you can find me on Instagram at Sarah Robertson Barnes. I can’t believe that this is episode 50 of Sustainable in the Suburbs.

which is honestly kind of wild to say out loud. I remember when I first started the show, my editor Mike saying that once you hit about 50 episodes, you’ll really start to find your stride and sort of the bones of the show, that kind of thing. And I remember thinking like, wow, 50 episodes is so many episodes. And here we are. I do think that over the past year, I have found the bones of the show and I sort of know what I’m doing now.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (02:22.702)
But I also think that together we found the soul of the show. We’ve had so many interesting conversations here with regular people, just people like you and I who are doing climate action in their own towns, in their own way, and trying to figure out what sustainable living actually looks like in real life. And I think that in that time, the same few through lines keep coming up over and over again. Number one is definitely community.

Whether that’s your local community, your school community, your workplace, your online community, I just keep coming back to the idea that community is such a fundamental part of climate resilience. The other is slowing down and realizing that you cannot do everything. It’s just not possible. And trying to do all of it at once is the fastest way to burn yourself out. Sustainable living has to be sustainable for you too. And then of course, there’s joy.

I’m always going to keep coming back to the climate Venn diagram. It just honestly feels really foundational to the soul of this show. What brings you joy? What are you good at? And what is the work that needs doing? That’s your climate action. And lately I’ve been thinking a lot about what we keep and what we let go of. So for episode 50, I thought it would be fun to go back to my podcast roots, not the first episode of this show, but the first podcast I was ever a guest on.

Back in 2020, I was interviewed on the now inactive podcast, Practically Zero Waste, hosted by Elizabeth Callahan. And this was very much the heyday of Zero Waste Online, peak trash jar time. Her show is exactly what it sounds like, Practical Zero Waste for Everyday Life and Normal Families. And there are well over a hundred episodes in the archives that you can go and listen to covering.

pretty much every zero waste topic you could think of. When Elizabeth first interviewed me, my kids were still early elementary school age. And we talked a lot about raising eco-conscious kids, what was possible with zero waste, and also the limitations of it. Now my kids are teenagers and Elizabeth has three young kids. So we’re both in a very different season of life than we were in back then. So today’s episode, we talk about where we’re both at now.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (04:48.546)
what we’ve kept, what we’ve let go of, and what sustainable living actually looks like for us these days. And then Elisabeth turned the table a little bit and interviewed me too. So here is my conversation with Elisabeth.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (05:04.504)
Hello, Elizabeth. I’m so glad you’re here. Welcome to Sustainable in the Suburbs.

Elsbeth Callaghan (05:09.806)
Welcome to Practically Zero Waste.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (05:11.79)
Yes, this is a crossover episode, everyone. is in my heart. actually go back and listen to it here and there because there’s over a hundred episodes, folks, and there’s something for everyone in there. So definitely go give it a listen. And obviously going to put it in the show notes. Yeah. We’ve been in each other’s orbit for a long time now.

Elsbeth Callaghan (05:15.64)
but it’s no longer active, but.

Elsbeth Callaghan (05:33.994)
long time. my gosh. You were like

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (05:37.07)
Six or seven years. I was on your episode 69, so 2020.

Elsbeth Callaghan (05:42.996)
late. my gosh. Yeah. What did I even talk about until it came to you? I don’t know.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (05:52.686)
There’s lots of great stuff in there. I was listening to a refilling one recently as well. It’s always good to revisit the classics.

Elsbeth Callaghan (06:00.622)
Yeah. I’m excited to talk about your podcast too, because I’m just like, it’s all, it’s got to have the classics in there. must. Yeah.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (06:08.962)
Yeah, playing the hits. So for anyone who might not know you, can you share a little bit about who you are and what your life looks like these days?

Elsbeth Callaghan (06:17.486)
Sure. So my name’s Elizabeth Callahan. I am a zero waste life lover. I’ve been living the lowest lifestyle for the last 10 years, but in 2018, I think I started the Practically Zero Waste podcast. ran that for, I think it was three and half years. Must’ve been longer. Trying to think it was between children, you know?

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (06:46.767)
That liminal space. Yeah.

Elsbeth Callaghan (06:49.292)
Yeah. And so I, at the time was, living with just my husband and one child and then later on second child. And, we were just doing the whole thing. We didn’t ever do, you know, a, a jar full of trash, which, you know, people think zero waste. Okay. But it’s, it was close to that. We were, we were putting out very, very little garbage. did cloth diapers, hardcore, didn’t even use.

any disposables ever, which was a bit of a, it was bold for your first child, you know?

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (07:23.406)
I can’t even fathom doing that now, like having the bandwidth to do that now, but at the time that was my whole personality for

Elsbeth Callaghan (07:30.318)
Yes. So I would, on that note, I would say that for sure. I am proud to say that I have evolved the zero waster that I am no longer, living to a point of stress and anxiety about my garbage output. I’m certainly, able to have a lot more of a life balance. Life trash balance. that what you call it? Yeah. And the.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (07:56.686)
I love that, yeah.

Elsbeth Callaghan (07:59.566)
And the podcast wallet ended in 2021, 2022. I’m excited to be chatting with you now because it’s interesting to see the changes that will have occurred and what has stayed the same. And the other big life thing is that almost three years ago, I was diagnosed with celiac disease. And so my whole life is in packaging now. Everything’s packaged. Everything is like…

wrapped in plastic and that was like a, okay, how am I going to navigate things going forward? And that was again, the trash life balance has evolved from there. But yeah, now we’re at baby number three. We’re back in the cloth diapers and I’m chatting with you again. So this is so exciting.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (08:47.902)
Yes, we tried to do this last summer actually. And they’re like, oops, I had a baby.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (08:55.168)
Yeah, that can sometimes happen. My two are very close together. yeah, been there, done that. I just had a question about the food and packaging because I don’t know much about it. Is that to sort of mitigate cross contamination?

Elsbeth Callaghan (09:08.792)
So with cross-contamination, yeah, you have to be really careful. With celiac disease, is any gluten contact at all, even like really, really small. For example, I don’t share a toaster with the rest of my family. Like I can’t have my bread go in the same thing we have to use. so like it’s hypersensitive like that. And that’s all celiac disease people, whether you have big reactions or not. Anyway, so that means that everything that is…

It means that I can’t shop at a bulk store, for example, because when flour goes up in the air, can take up to four or five days for it to settle and it could settle anywhere. wow. Crumbs fall, flour goes poof. And so I have to avoid bulk stores, which was like a, whoa, that was my entire existence for a long time. How do I transition away from that?

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (10:06.337)
store like that too, didn’t you? So.

Elsbeth Callaghan (10:08.394)
Yeah, was so as opposed to it was bulk, but yes, it was. It was a weird time to be. It’s like, you can’t diagnose me with celiac disease. I’m zero waste.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (10:20.962)
Yeah. my jars. And how did that feel like trying to just come to terms with that, with the packaging and…

Elsbeth Callaghan (10:23.17)
but my jobs, but my refills.

Elsbeth Callaghan (10:32.78)
It was very frustrating. It was very frustrating for a long time. And I think at the start too, you don’t know what to do and you don’t know what to eat. And obviously eating was the priority. And so I had to take the, you know, the focus off of all the waste. so learning how to make do without things or make things from scratch, even though they’re gluten free. Yeah, it’s all been, it’s been a journey. I’m still in for sure.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (11:01.88)
So back in 2018, as you mentioned, you did start the podcast, Practically Zero Waste. What made you want to start a podcast rather than going the Instagram route? That’s when Zero Waste was killing on Instagram in 2018.

Elsbeth Callaghan (11:17.39)
was so good. I thought when I first started learning everything there was to know about zero waste, I was like, wow, the world needs to hear this. There’s not enough conversations happening. We need to be talking about this and it needs to be accessible because the things that we were learning about zero waste at the beginning were just like unattainable, unsustainable. Like emotionally, you could not keep that going. It’s impossible.

And was like, how can you approach this really practically, really down to earth and like just really simple swaps that people can actually like attain. And so I wanted to have those conversations. The best thing I could think of was to interview other people and learn and just feed my own thirst for knowledge or satisfy that on my own thirst for knowledge. And I just loved doing it. my goodness.

The conversations you would have were so much fun. The people that you would connect with were just, just so pumped about their topic.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (12:25.39)
Just such a joy.

Elsbeth Callaghan (12:28.962)
They know so much. have so much to share. It’s such a delight. Yeah, I loved, I loved doing it.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (12:37.294)
And I was going to ask you, what led you to step away from it? But of course, a small human will do that.

Elsbeth Callaghan (12:44.076)
Yes. And it’s the same thing that you’re probably experiencing is that the relentless pace of any online presence is exhausting. And that’s part of my question for you is how have you kept up this pace for 10 years, if not longer?

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (13:02.316)
That’s a really good question because I did start my page in, think 2017 or 2016, one of those. And it was during plastic pre July. And that is when I found the zero waste hashtag. it’s a lot of things that I’d already been doing. Like I’d been shopping at ball barn since I was in my early twenties, back in university when, you know, lentils were what I could afford. And, you know, things like that and thrift shopping and all that kind of stuff.

But I’d found the plastic free July hashtag. I don’t know how the algorithm brought it into my life, I suppose. that’s what I found. The previous algorithms. I don’t know about the current ones so much. But I just realized that there were other people who were doing the same things that I was doing and I wasn’t like a weird hippie.

Elsbeth Callaghan (13:57.185)
Not just for weirdos.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (13:58.408)
No. And I mean, I live in like a really affluent suburb. It’s like a lot of SUVs and like going to winners and you know, stuff like that. And that just never really appealed to me. And I’ve always felt very strange. I’m like been called a tree hugger and not, you know, all that kind of stuff. And then I found the zero waste hashtag and was like, my God, there’s all these people. Exactly. And then I did the same thing. I was just like, let me read to the end of the internet about this.

and try to find, you know, like the big influencers at the time and that sort of thing, were doing the trash jar. And that did not work for me. My kids were really small then, they were like four or five, something like that. And it just wasn’t doable. Like I still have to drive my car places. I don’t live in a walkable city. I didn’t have a refill store at the time. Bulk Barn had just started their reusable container program around the same time. But I felt very lonely.

And so when I found people online that were doing it, it helped me make a lot of connections. that’s how I you. friends. And friends, exactly. A bunch of, you know, just a bunch of us weirdos all doing the thing. And then that led me to find local people who are also doing it, who found it through the hashtag and have since opened a refill store and all those kinds of things. But yeah, so I just wanted to share everything.

that I was doing and everything that I was learning, but also how I was doing it. So like I said, it was a lot of, I’m like really, you know, white flat lays with eucalyptus leaves and bamboo and all this kind of stuff. And that did not look like my real life. No, this is what my real life looks like. That’s why my background is blurred. That did not feel like my real life. so I was trying to…

Elsbeth Callaghan (15:37.13)
you

you

Elsbeth Callaghan (15:47.342)
Way too,

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (15:48.63)
I very gently pushed back on that, that this actually, like this is an aesthetic. It’s not a lifestyle. And I think it might be about more than the plastic folks. You know, it got very like hyper individualized, which didn’t feel right for me either. And so I started finding folks that were like, we need to talk about systems and we need to talk about justice and things like that.

Yeah,

Elsbeth Callaghan (16:19.49)
Comes from Bia Johnson though. Like the aesthetic is partly like her take on low waste living. was all like the zero waste home was the zero waste aesthetic for forever. Cause it was the first thing to be talked about. And so then if that is all that zero waste is, you have to buy your cheese in a jar. You have to like, you know, access to all of these resources that not everyone has access to. It made it.

Exclusive, immediate limiting. So I love that that was the direction that you went in.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (16:54.69)
And it just, like I felt it in my chest. Like it was part of the anxiety of trying to present this like, I’m zero waste. No, I’m not. is. Yeah, exactly. I’m like, I have popcorn ceilings. Like this is not, like the OGs might remember. My change used to be called popcorn ceiling life. Yeah. Because I was like, I’m in the suburbs. My life’s a hot mess express, but I’m still trying to.

compost my dishcloths and that kind of thing. And so I got, and I’ll be perfectly honest, like my account grew really fast and I got a lot of like validation and dopamine and that kind of stuff from it. And that really pushed me forward for a few years. And then it was the pandemic and it was sort of, I think that really took a lot of air out of like quote unquote zero waste. like you took the air out of.

everything, but I just, I mean, in terms of like disposables and whether or not we’re we’re Yeah. All of that kind of stuff. And it really sort of deflated what I was doing. Like I was supposed to speak at the green living show in Toronto on Saturday and everything shut down on Friday. And then of course like reels came along and that was all fine and good and everything. And now,

Elsbeth Callaghan (17:56.407)
Yep, a lot of fear.

Elsbeth Callaghan (18:08.034)
Yes, I remember that.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (18:19.294)
It’s, it’s just a hellscape out there. I’ll be perfectly honest. The algorithm is a hot mess.

Elsbeth Callaghan (18:24.908)
Tell me everything about the current zero waste world, because I know nothing.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (18:29.832)
I mean, it’s not even that anymore. like how sustainable living online is, is shown is a lot different. It’s become very monetized. Everyone has their like sustainable living essentials in an Amazon storefront. You know, and I get it on the one hand and on the other hand, I don’t get it and that’s fine. But I just also got really burnt out on making reels because for me, like every one second of video takes me an hour.

Elsbeth Callaghan (18:57.77)
And it’s a blip in someone’s existence and you’ve spent so much time on it.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (19:02.42)
Yes. It’s very ephemeral. And if it doesn’t catch on within 20 seconds or within 20 minutes or whatever in the algorithm, it’s just dead. And I don’t own it. Meta owns it. don’t have any control. If my account got deleted tomorrow, then why? So I just started putting a lot more effort into my blog and just sort of trucking along. And again, I’ve never made very much money at this at all. Nope.

And yeah, and I just got to a point where I was really burnt out on social media, like just burnt out on just all of it. And I thought, you know, I used to be a high school teacher. really liked talking to people and teaching and, you know, just sort of yapping about all this. And I thought, well, you know, like, I’m going to try a podcast.

Elsbeth Callaghan (19:53.646)
Why did you start a podcast? I know that we asked that earlier, but like, why, why now? Why?

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (20:00.63)
Why now? That’s a really good question. So like I was saying, I’m just, was so burnt out on social media and

Elsbeth Callaghan (20:09.79)
With us. are so on top of it. Like I’ve never seen anyone be on top of it.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (20:14.446)
Yeah. And you know what? It brought me nothing. mean, in the sense that it is a lot of time, a lot of time that I just no longer could justify doing for free. I had a year or two in there where I was doing really well, like quote unquote, really well, for a part time job. I worked with Bulk Barn and they’re awesome. And they’re located here. Their headquarters is here in my town.

The family that owns it is from Aurora and they’re all like wonderful folks, but the world changed and tariffs really screwed everybody over. So I was working with a lot of different brands and it all disappeared at once. And I was just really stuck with like, but I want to talk about this forever. I was in this, excuse me, I was in this like women who business group and

Elsbeth Callaghan (21:07.714)
Yes.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (21:09.878)
I wasn’t really a business at that point, but they all have podcasts and they were like, why don’t you start a podcast? If all you want to do is talk about it, why don’t you start a podcast? And I was like, that’s an amazing idea. I could talk about this forever. I have so much blog content. This will be easy. Yeah. Because I didn’t know what it took to put together a podcast. And now I do. That’s great. And it’ll be a year now.

Elsbeth Callaghan (21:29.358)
You

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (21:38.668)
And I’m really enjoying it. I’m really enjoying it. But yeah, this will be my 50th episode, but I have gone bi-weekly because I’m a one woman show. And as I’m sure you can appreciate, putting out a weekly episode is a lot of work and it was becoming unsustainable for me.

Elsbeth Callaghan (21:39.872)
Easy.

Elsbeth Callaghan (21:59.392)
and not fun anymore and taking too much out of your life.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (22:03.054)
Yeah, I mean, it does a lot of work because I’m very careful and I super prep and all of that. But then it’s also the marketing machine behind it because I want folks to find the show and to get something out of it and to tell their friends and for us to all do the things. But it’s like, as soon as I get one episode up, I got to do the next one. And I’m not nurturing it in the way that I think it will have the biggest impact.

So we’re just going to slow down. And that’s what I’m telling folks on the show all the time is you got to slow down if you want these things to stick and just do less.

Elsbeth Callaghan (22:43.166)
It like a sprint at the beginning, for sure. Like we were just all sprinting, being like, action has to take place now. And then as the sprint dies out, we’re like, actually, if you can’t do this slowly, you won’t be able to keep it going your whole life. you were saying, from the beginning, we have been soaking in the life of, you just composted growing up.

You just shopped secondhand, you just shopped at the bulk store because it was cheaper. And now you’re seeing all the environmental impacts of all of these things. Great. But those are like habits that we’ve built over a lifetime. And those are the ones that are sticking the most versus like, yes, we are obviously reducing waste in lots of ways. You drive less, all of the things that are important, but like the long-term slow, most impactful.

most bang for your buck actions are the ones that we can keep going on a regular basis. And if you’re not able to keep them going, then obviously the movement’s going to fail.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (23:49.004)
Yeah. I mean, I mentioned this to you off mic too, but I listened back to our episode today of practically zero waste episode 69. Check it out. I’ll put it in the show notes. But you were asking me a lot of these questions about, know, like, well, how are you raising your kids to be eco-conscious and all these kinds of things.

Elsbeth Callaghan (24:04.92)
How are you?

Elsbeth Callaghan (24:09.678)
I think about that all the time, your answers.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (24:13.166)
Yeah. Well, let’s talk about those because I mean, the common thread that ran through it, and I was telling you this before we started, was like, you know, I listened to that episode and I do things very differently now, but also exactly the same. And so what I mean by that is, it’s really what you were just saying. It’s the basics. It’s the fundamentals. It’s teaching kids like how to be a person in the world. It doesn’t really matter like what you’re

dish brush fibers are made out of. That’s fine. Isn’t it crazy that we use the- Right. you know, or like, yeah, okay. So, and it’s just, that’s fine, but like it’s the composting that matters. It’s not whether it’s compostable. Does that make sense? Like it’s the, this is where our food scraps go. This is how we divert waste in our home. Why does this go on recycling and this goes in the trash?

Elsbeth Callaghan (24:49.166)
think that that mattered.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (25:12.288)
Why can this be composted and this can’t? And it’s just a habit now. It’s just, you know, we scrape our plates into the green bin. We take that bin out to the backyard and we dump it in the thing and we, you know, we turn it on Saturdays. We shop secondhand first. That’s just always been how we do things. It’s okay. Well, let’s look on Kijiji. Let’s go to Value Village. All of these different things. We’re going to the bulk store on Sundays. Let’s make the list. What are we going to batch cook this week? This is how we shop.

These are all like just foundational habits that we can build, we can stack on top of, that we can scaffold. This is how you’re going to live your life when you leave our home. And of course they’re going to do things differently like every generation does, but also they’ll return to these things as their foundations when they’re setting up their own households and what’s important to them because ultimately the goal of parenting is to instill values. And these are the things that we value.

Elsbeth Callaghan (25:52.012)
Yes.

Elsbeth Callaghan (26:10.358)
Yeah, the name of that episode that we did was called Raising Eco Kids. And I had forgotten that until just now that you had talked about just raising decent human beings as being the most world-changing action that you can do.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (26:25.198)
Yeah. I mean, I used to teach civics back in the day. And that’s something that is in the forefront of my mind still today is raising responsible citizens. And that goes so far beyond showing up on election day. It’s also like how you move through your community and what are things that are important that will serve the greater good and where can we find justice and whose labor produces thing that I have.

and on and on. And I think that that’s more important to me now than whether or not a thing comes in a plastic bag.

Elsbeth Callaghan (27:02.304)
Isn’t it amazing that like it comes down to these virtues that we’re teaching our children or that like the superficial stuff. Yeah. And that like when you enter into something and you have to go through the stages, I think, because when you enter zero waste, I’m sure when you started your podcast, you were like, everybody, let’s do a trash audit. Because that’s how you start.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (27:20.344)
Cause that’s

Elsbeth Callaghan (27:26.146)
You have to become aware of the problem and the scope of it. And then the actual solution is building virtue and raising decent human beings or like encouraging, lifting other people up around you as opposed to, know, being, beating them over the head with their trashcan saying you’re doing it wrong.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (27:43.778)
I can remember shame is not a learning tool and that’s not ever going to work. And I’ve also really moved away from, this is going to sound really counterintuitive, but I’ve really moved away from the, need to save the planet sort of mindset into, cause I don’t think that that moves anybody in the way that we want them moved. If we’re all trying to sort of move in this direction, because I really do believe that people care. We all really care. We are all ambiently aware of

climate change and the impacts on that. But that’s not what it looks like in our everyday real lives. Right now we’re worried about food costs and energy costs. Like what if I told you that those are also climate actions? by reducing food waste in your home, you are taking climate action. But more importantly, and I think that what moves more folks is you’re going to save money. And so I’ve really now started approaching

Like I said, I’m still doing all of the same things, but in a different way. And it’s not through a zero-waste lens anymore. It’s through an eco-frugal lens, which is a term I just learned. In the last month or two, these wonderful women, Angela and Regina, they run Women’s Personal Finance and they are like a leftist money duo. And they have a real eye towards sustainability as well.

Elsbeth Callaghan (28:49.996)
do hashtag.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (29:10.144)
and investing in sustainable things and what have you. And they asked me to be on their panel about being eco-fruble. And I had thought about that term ever and realized that that describes me perfectly. And the things that I’m talking about these days, we can do two things at once. We can save the planet and we can save money. So it’s kind of funny how this has all come full circle. So when I was on your show talking about this a few years ago,

And I’ll just say it again, I’m doing the same things in a completely different way. So I thought it would be funny if you asked me some of those same questions again. We’ll see what’s different.

Elsbeth Callaghan (29:50.648)
This is so fun. the thing that I would love to know the most because you’ve been doing this for so long, you’ve kind of become like the character arc of a zero-waster. We’re seeing from the very beginning to like this excellent arc of becoming more aware of not just your travel

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (29:59.598)
So.

Elsbeth Callaghan (30:19.822)
or your CO2 emissions, but that it really comes down to unity with other people and connection with other people, in order to make a lasting difference. What I want to know is how in your own home have you been able to…

work on those sorts of attributes. Let me say that again. How in your own home have you been able to keep that slower momentum going so that the lasting change is happening in your kids, in your husband, in your community? We talked about shame not being a very good impetus for change at all. And how probably at the beginning there was a lot more frustration with other people at not changing fast enough.

What are your tips now for working with other people, for working in your family and keeping that momentum going?

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (31:19.692)
I think for us, it just really comes down to consistency. I’ve let go of things, but I haven’t let go of the value. So at this point, like it’s fine if we end up with a plastic toothbrush in the house from the dentist, I do not care. It’s fine. It’s a free toothbrush and it is what it is. And I used to get really upset about that. And now I’m not. We don’t have to worry about like goody bags or anything like that anymore because my kids are teenagers and that’s not cool.

So I was able to let go of a lot of those little bits, but at the same time, focus again, like I said, more on people and planet versus just trash. And so as they’re getting older, we can have more age appropriate conversations about systems and about environmental justice and about what that looks like outside our front door and across the world. I can talk to them about current events.

And, you know, I can talk to them about billionaires and all of these different things. you know, I said this on your podcast as well, like I’m raising, you know, who will become two white men. And so we need to have these conversations. But you know, about, you know, working in community and caring about other people and listening to different voices.

Elsbeth Callaghan (32:35.918)
Sarah Robertson-Barnes (32:46.824)
and understanding when yours is needed and when it isn’t and what it means to, like I said before, be a responsible citizen. And what does that mean for your community? What does that mean for your school community? One of my son plays soccer at a very high level and you know, what does that mean for your team? What does it mean to be a good teammate? And these things don’t necessarily have anything to do with like being quote unquote sustainable.

Elsbeth Callaghan (33:13.685)
everything to do with it, Sarah.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (33:15.47)
But that’s what I’m saying is I heard recently, know, every job is a climate job. I was like, that’s interesting. And so I started thinking about it that way. Like, you know, how do you be part of a team? Well, you know, on your soccer team, it’s, you know, I’m listening to the coach and I’m encouraging my teammates and I’m making sure that when I say I’m going to show up, I’m going to do it all these different things. And I think that it’s really spidered out into how they’re moving through the world, even if they’re not conscious of it.

because we’ve been talking about how everything is connected and how you can have a negative impact or you can have a positive impact on the world around you. And that doesn’t have anything to do with, you know, plastic or carbon emissions or whatever, but it does have everything to do with the community that they’re building and that they are part of. That’s really important.

Elsbeth Callaghan (34:03.64)
Yeah.

Elsbeth Callaghan (34:07.67)
It’s so interesting to you. Just that person to person connection will change everything. And it’s funny, do you have many people in your life who remember when Sarah was like a tree hugger and now she’s so much more well-rounded and that like, I still have friends who come over for parties and apologize when they bring a bag of chips.

because it’s in packaging. And it’s so funny because that was like five years ago was the last time that I made a big stink about like packaging coming into my home. And like, there’s so many things that have changed since then with the celiac disease, like, do you have people that are still a little apologetic towards you for being eco-friendly or not being eco-friendly? mean,

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (34:58.508)
You know what? I don’t. And I wonder if that’s, I don’t know if it’s because my kids are older, because I used to have like, moms apologized to me like, sorry about the goodie bag or sorry, it’s all plastic forks or whatever. even then I’d be like, I literally don’t care. Like it’s fine. You know, I can help you in the future if you want to do it differently, but like what’s done is done and it’s fine. And we’ll, do better when we know better and that’s fine. But I haven’t had that experience actually.

And so that’s interesting that you say that. What I have noticed though, is folks in my life have made changes without telling me necessarily. I was over at my in-laws recently and I realized, I’m like, I’m sorry, is this a block of dish soap with a wooden dish brush and a Swedish dish cloth with herbs in a jar of water beside the sink?

Elsbeth Callaghan (35:49.662)
No way.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (35:51.502)
Like, oh yeah, we got that because we see that you do that in your kitchen and that looked cute and it was fine. It’s for the aesthetic. But I was literally like, oh God, I did it. I influenced.

Elsbeth Callaghan (36:02.094)
through real life, in this an influencer.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (36:05.365)
I was at Thanksgiving last year and I was just so touched by that. wow. I was really speechless. And so I think that’s really interesting that you are influencing people in quiet ways, whether you realize it or not.

Elsbeth Callaghan (36:22.634)
family member who was raised in the exact same household. mean, exact same, who knows how different it was like between siblings, but he doesn’t recycle. puts everything in the same, in the garbage can and it makes my eyes twitch. But like also we don’t, we don’t.

We don’t not talk about it, but like we also, we’ve had the conversation that he’s worked in like whatever waste management facilities and he just is discouraged. So he’s just like, doesn’t matter, but we can talk about those things and it’s not like, well, can’t go to your house anymore. Or when I do go to your house, I’m to sort your recycling. No, no, no, no, no, But then it’s done. I am not your mom, but also we can have these conversations and we can like connect and make the

people and planet like equal priorities. It’s not just about the planet, vision of the people then, you know.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (37:24.854)
Yeah. And that’s ultimately like who we’re stuck with every day, right? Is the people around you and what that relationship is like. And like even your family unit is a community in a sense. And so it’s just making sure that everybody’s needs are met and that there’s justice there and then extending that outward. So, you know, it’s like, well, who’s the last person that unloaded the dishwasher or who’s the last person that cooked dinner? But then you can widen that out to

And you know, like why is food so expensive right now? And we can talk about those things and we can talk about fuel costs and we can talk about the energy crisis and we can talk about, you know, the billionaires who own the stores gouging us. And then we can move that out further to what are we spraying on our fields and who picks our food and how does it get to our table and bring it back in? And I’m not trying to give my kids a lecture at the dinner table every night.

No, I save that for the drive to school in the morning now. My son’s always just like, my gosh, yeah, I mean, it’s just, we’re just talking about current events and he’ll say, you know, did you hear this? Did you see that? And then we, just want to talk about it with them so that they can make some sense of the world through our lens and also try to see it through other people’s lenses as well.

Elsbeth Callaghan (38:25.678)
Thank

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (38:46.934)
and just realize that this move toward a greener future is for everyone. So with all of that said, and we’ve talked a lot about, you know, letting things go, what are some of the things that you have kept, kept the good stuff?

Elsbeth Callaghan (39:03.638)
Yeah, it is the good stuff. It’s the stuff that matters and feels the most. Like everyone’s going to have their thing and everyone’s going have their motivation with eco-friendly living. like that eco frugal really hit me because I’m like, yeah, that is something that has become our priority, like our motivation. So yeah, I have maybe five things that I definitely am still doing.

The first one that comes to mind is like cloth diapers and cloth pads. And that is entirely motivated by money. only borrow them or get them secondhand, cloth diapers. And cause everybody like, anyway, I only borrow them or get them secondhand. And, I have made my own pads or bought them and those have just saved us so much money over the years.

other things that I am still doing. Shopping local as opposed to like, I mean, if you can’t get it local, then find something that you can get local. I don’t want to just be like, don’t use Amazon.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (40:21.292)
I say that I have a whole episode about not using Amazon and we’re both Canadian and we’re doing the bi-Canadian thing too, I’m sure.

Elsbeth Callaghan (40:24.812)
Is Amazon for anything?

Elsbeth Callaghan (40:30.914)
Yeah. So, buying local, like if you can find something local, then get it local. definitely still composting. that has been like even Peterborough has finally, wow, for all the practical ways their waistbands out there. Peterborough went to a composting system. So they have compost pickups at the curb.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (40:51.15)
Like you just got green bins.

Elsbeth Callaghan (40:53.518)
Within the last two years. Really? Two and a half years. Yeah. Oh my goodness. And it’s still, it’s shipped to Belleville. Like it’s not even like a local processing system. Reusables.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (41:08.206)
Reusables. They never go out of style. I talked on your podcast about zero waste lunches and using the stainless steel containers. And my son is now in grade nine and still rocking the same containers that he started kindergarten with. That’s so Fantastic. And I just think about how much, not just like garbage that has saved over the whatever we’re at now, 10 years, 11 years of schooling.

Elsbeth Callaghan (41:26.311)
Sarah Robertson-Barnes (41:38.296)
how much money we’ve saved on not buying disposables.

Elsbeth Callaghan (41:42.082)
Not buying a new lunch pail every year just because, you know?

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (41:46.702)
Still rocking the Star Wars lunch bag. I’ve just instilled this attitude in them too. think they’re just like, who cares? It works. It’s fine. I don’t care. Nailed it.

Elsbeth Callaghan (41:58.062)
I meant to wash my water bottle in your honor. Tonight. have definitely.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (42:03.822)
I don’t know who needs to hear this, but you need to wash out your reusable.

Elsbeth Callaghan (42:10.078)
Anytime I have to wash my water bottle, I think of you.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (42:14.318)
That pleases me to no end. Yeah. think honestly, the things that I’m still doing when I listened to our episode earlier was it’s all the same stuff. It’s shopping in bulk. It’s composting, whether it’s in my municipal pickup or in the backyard or feeding my worms or what have you. It just seems like the thing to do. Yeah. And I’m still shopping secondhand first.

Elsbeth Callaghan (42:37.038)
Please.

Elsbeth Callaghan (42:41.966)
That’s it. That was the other thing.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (42:43.848)
It still pains me if I have to buy something new, which sometimes you just have to do that. It’s fine. Exactly. Yeah. It’s just sort of where do I want to put my money? And I talk about secondhand first all the time. I love my local buy nothing group. They’re fantastic. And I’ve learned how to use the apps. It’s my husband actually, that is like a Kijiji wizard.

and can find anything on Facebook marketplace. Is it not real anymore?

See, he does all this. He does all this. He would find all the Lego and now it’s like the kids want these like hideous basketball shoes or whatever. And so we just find them on Poshmark. like people buy stuff and then they don’t wear it. You know? And so you can just get it and it looks perfectly brand new. But the kids still ask, like, can we look on Poshmark for this? Can we look on Marketplace for that? Because they know.

Elsbeth Callaghan (43:34.136)
So don’t push me.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (43:48.014)
Like, hell yeah, we can go get that. And then we go out and we get in and then we can get some lunch together or whatever. And we’re spending time together doing that. And so I think that also teaches them, know, patience and delayed gratification, which in the year 2026 is I think a hard skill to build. for teenagers. Yeah. But it’s something you can start at any time. Just take that pause and be like, wait, do I need this?

Elsbeth Callaghan (44:07.822)
Thank

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (44:13.894)
How can I find this locally? How can I find the second hand? So we’re still doing that. And yeah, the reusable is really never go out of style. Really can’t stress that enough.

Elsbeth Callaghan (44:23.17)
Now.

Yeah. They’re so good. They’re so good. And it’s weird like being away from them for a little while. I’m thinking with cloth diapers and cloth wipes. we were away from that for four years almost. And, and now we’re back into it and it’s just like, this genuinely saves us so much money. I.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (44:47.172)
Yeah, I make the jokes that like, know, the second kid poops for free.

Because mine are so close together that that’s how that ended up happening. But I just passed mine on to a friend of mine. We did the system that’s like a pre-fold with like a cover over the top and the covers are still out there. I don’t know what ended up happening with the pre-fold parts, but I think that covers are on there like fifth or sixth kid at this point, which is fantastic. I think there’s a weird mental block with like secondhand cloth diapers. Like it’s a diaper.

It’s fine. We have a washing machine.

Elsbeth Callaghan (45:26.678)
Yes, if you’re going to wash underwear and reuse it, you can wash a diaper and reuse it.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (45:31.502)
Yeah, reusing underwear is a funny thing that I think people are like, but it’s again, like it’s, I buy secondhand bathing suits.

Elsbeth Callaghan (45:37.08)
Yeah, I’m about a second in everything. Yeah.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (45:44.59)
All right, so I’m going to put you back in the hot seat here. And I like to end every episode with a segment that I call One Small Shift. And so the idea behind it is just like we’ve been talking about, sustainable living can feel really overwhelming. And it doesn’t have to be because the small changes that we make intentionally really add up. So I ask every guest to share one small shift that feels doable and manageable.

in your everyday life. So if you could leave listeners with one small thing they could change this week, what would it be?

Elsbeth Callaghan (46:19.672)
about this, that even if it’s been a long time since you last did something eco-friendly, you can still start again today. And my favorite way to do that is having a plan before you jump in so that you are able to, I don’t know, sometimes you’re just kind of like, no, I have to go vegan to save the planet. So that means I can’t eat any of the cheese that’s still in my fridge.

You know, like you have to, you have to have a plan in place first, but that is never too late. And you can always either come back to it or come to it for the first time. yes, that’s, that’s kind of the stage that I’m in right now is we are picking up a lot of old habits and it feels really good.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (47:05.42)
I love that. Just start again. So where’s the best place for people to connect with you and find out what you’re doing now?

Elsbeth Callaghan (47:15.05)
nowhere, absolutely nowhere. am off the map. It feels so good. mean, I like, I have other platforms and other things that are available. It’s fantastic. I live under a rock. You’ll never find me. Dreams. Good for you.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (47:24.97)
I am so

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (47:35.48)
Well, Elizabeth, thank you so much for this. This was such a treat. And I appreciate you so much.

Elsbeth Callaghan (47:40.864)
I miss chatting. This has been wonderful. Yeah, this was great.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (47:46.028)
I really appreciated that conversation with Elisabeth, especially reflecting back on the one we had in 2020. Kids are older, our lives are different. And I think that both of us have really let go of a lot of the pressure and aesthetics that surrounded zero waste back in the day. And underneath all of that, the core values are still there. Community, consistency, slowing down, caring for the people around us, and just trying to live thoughtfully in whatever

season of life we happen to be in. And honestly, that felt pretty fitting for episode 50. You can find all of the links or resources and Elspeth’s show in the show notes for this episode. And for everything else, you can head over to sustainable in the suburbs.com and sign up for the newsletter where I share new episodes, sustainable living tips, and what I’m doing in my real life. And if you’ve been enjoying the podcast, I’d be so grateful again if you shared it.

and left a rating or a review or send this episode to someone who’s trying to figure all of this out too. Until next time, start where you are, use what you have and live a little greener.

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (48:59.032)
Thanks for tuning in to Sustainable in the Suburbs. Every small step adds up and I’m so glad we’re doing this together. If you enjoyed this episode, please make sure to follow the show, share it with a friend and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. You can find me at sustainableinthesuburbs.com or at Sarah Robertson Barnes on all the things. Until next time, start where you are, use what you have and live a little greener. This podcast is produced, mixed and edited by Cardinal Studio.

Elsbeth Callaghan (49:21.838)
you

Sarah Robertson-Barnes (49:26.444)
For more information about how to start your own podcast, please visit http://www.cardinalsstudio.co or email Mike at mike at cardinalsstudio.co. You can also find the details in the show notes.